18
   

They’re 18 for Gods sake

 
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 03:56 am
@contrex,
As a teenager who, had a student teacher who was engaged at the time, try it on me and me, put some makeup on, only to hide it when I got home, only to get sprung cause mascara does show..

It is in-excusable for a teacher to flirt with the intention of anything else.

Fortunately for me, I was a Virgin so he wouldn't do anything. Scared? You bet ya.

It's easy for a teenager to fall for her teacher or (sinc) his. They are mentors.

Ok 18... No diff. Takes a while to grow up and mature.

aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 04:20 am
I hadn't heard about this, so I just read the account.

I mean, obviously she's out of control in many ways and I don't think she should ever teach again or be put in a position where she's able to exert power or influence over young people. And I think that's even more important in terms of a consequence and future preventive measure for these or similar actions than the jail time.

When I was in highschool and college, it was common knowledge that girls were going out with teachers. One of my friends was going out with an English teacher - she was 17 and he was about 22- one of my friends was going out with the psychology teacher - around about the same age difference, although he may have been a couple years older.
Nobody thought anything about it except that the teachers were giving these girls A's when maybe they deserved B's.

In college, there was one English professor who seemed to only date students. He pretty much cut a swath through the female students body (pun intended) and had come on to me, but he was too busy for my taste. There was sort of a big to-do when the girl he was dating turned in a paper on Shakespeare which the assigning professor didn't believe she had done on his own without her English professor boyfriend's help...I don't know what the final decision was, but it was hard on her.
I mean, I don't know about jail time, but for sure this is professional malpractice and they should take her teaching certificate/licence and keep it.
She does seem like a predator of young males.
If she wants to go out and meet them on her own time in a bar or something, fine - but yeah- I don't send my son to school to have him being texted by a teacher for group sex session
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 04:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

You must all be very virtuous.


I don't think any of us are particularly virtuous; we do try to keep our professional and social lives from mixing in a potentially problematic way. If I worked in a bank I would be expected to resist any temptation, no matter how strong, to have fun with the banknotes and money orders under my care.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  4  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 04:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I would be troubled more if the teacher were male and the students were female. I would be troubled more if the teacher were male and the students were male.

I'm curious about why hold this view, Frank.
You've talked about the benefits of young males being initiated by older women in different cultures. But let's stick to the culture we live in ( I'm not living in the same culture as you, though not too different)

Anyway, why is it acceptable to you that young males be initiated into sexual activity by older women (teachers in this case), while you feel more "troubled" by female students receiving similar treatment from male teachers?
And why (by your reasoning) would male teachers "initiating" male students worry you more than the situation that's being discussed here?
Personally, I can't see the difference. I wonder why you do.

I'm a teacher. Have been for most of my adult life.
Here's my perspective, if you're interested.
Students & their teachers are not "equal", in so many ways .... nowhere near it!
Teachers are adults (or at least expected to behave as adults), with a whole lot more experience of the world than their students have.
The thing is, there's a big power imbalance between adult teachers & their students.
I think it's critical that teachers, assuming they actually have the maturity to understand this, say nothing of the rules that govern their profession, respect that & behave ethically.
It is perfectly normal for adolescents to develop "crushes" on particular teachers. I could certainly tell you a lot of stories from my own earlier teaching days! Teenage boys with rioting hormones ...
But .... you don't take advantage of adolescent infatuation by actually ******* your students! Because it is a totally unequal power situation.

And personally, I believe that any teacher who takes advantage of that power imbalance should not be teaching. It's simply a matter of being mature, or "grown up" enough, to understand that adolescent sexuality is one thing, but your respect for your students & the job your are required to do (education) means that you don't take advantage.
As if you'd want to, knowing all that, as a reasonably well adjusted adult, say nothing of being a teacher!
.
nextone
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 07:27 am
@msolga,
Very well said!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 07:29 am
@nextone,
Thank you.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 08:36 am
@msolga,
I'd like to add my support Felix. One thing that needs to be remembered that when the teacher/pupil relationship begins they are children, and when they've just turned 18 they're still very vulnerable.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 12:11 pm
@msolga,
msolga

You quoted me saying:

Quote:
I would be troubled more if the teacher were male and the students were female. I would be troubled more if the teacher were male and the students were male.


That was extracted from a larger comment of mine that actually read:


Quote:
I understand how you feel on this, Max. Thank you for sharing. Obviously I feel differently.

I will acknowledge that I am not entirely consistent. I would be troubled more if the teacher were male and the students were female. I would be troubled more if the teacher were male and the students were male.

But the 20 year sentence is way too extreme...and I do think the nature of the female seducing a young male is different from the other two items I mentioned.

Color me wrong, if you must.


You then wrote:

Quote:
Anyway, why is it acceptable to you that young males be initiated into sexual activity by older women (teachers in this case), while you feel more "troubled" by female students receiving similar treatment from male teachers?
And why (by your reasoning) would male teachers "initiating" male students worry you more than the situation that's being discussed here?
Personally, I can't see the difference. I wonder why you do.


Well, Msolga, if you cannot see the difference between my complete quote and the part you chose to use, you probably cannot understand my position no matter how clearly I articulate it.

And if you honestly cannot see the difference between male teachers hitting on young women and female teachers hitting on young men...I am positive you will not understand my position no matter how clearly I articulate it.

So why should I bother?

Rework your thoughts and questions...and if I see enough reason to take your questions seriously, I will respond. You might give a bit more consideration to whether or not you truly do not see some difference in the two matters mentioned above...which might help.

If not, I will decline to do so with as much respect and as politely as possible.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 12:14 pm
I have to say, Olga has put it succinctly. Quibbling over a few points like that does not make her statement less true.
0 Replies
 
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 12:29 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Are you as outraged as we

My sons and I are appalled at the recent jailing—5 years— of a teacher who sexed a several of her students who were however 18
>>

That's more common then we're led to believe. Kids, both girls and boys, are afraid to talk about it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:00 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Anyway, why is it acceptable to you that young males be initiated into sexual activity by older women (teachers in this case), while you feel more "troubled" by female students receiving similar treatment from male teachers?
And why (by your reasoning) would male teachers "initiating" male students worry you more than the situation that's being discussed here?
Personally, I can't see the difference. I wonder why you do.


You may well wonder Olga. Frank may well think, as I do, that the subject is actually undiscussable without it offending some people. The line you take has an advantage in this respect. The other side feel they can't answer back properly without getting into matters which few people are ready to know about. So you get to spout your sanctimonious speech unopposed.

It is worth bearing in mind that Shakespeare was 18 when Miss Hathaway lured him into a haystack with her presumably Sirenic wiles. I think it was a seminal event in Shakespeare's mind-blowing. Perhaps the lady was experimenting to see if she could muse up a few American Shakespeare types rather than the Dick van Dykes and Benjamin Braddocks. And that Vance chap.

Bob Dylan had something to say about older ladies when he was hustling in New York at 19. And it's a traditional French upper-class custom for fathers to have their sons "shown the ropes" by an older lady of experience. Maybe they felt that it would help prevent their sons getting some doxie in the "pudding club" if they weren't overexcited with the novelty.

I can see that the lady is going to have to lose her teacher's certificate but one day in jail is plain ridiculous.

What poetry there is in Dylan's verse from Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again,

Quote:
Well Shakespeare he's in the alley
With his pointed shoes and his bells
Speaking to some French girl
Who says she knows me well
And I would send a message
To find out if she's talked
But the post office has been stolen
And the mailbox is locked
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.


That is fantastic poetry. Unheard of in the whole history of literature.

Bossies and secretaries are not equal. Neither are Drill Sergeants.

Quote:
Starry-eyed an' laughing as I recall when we were caught
Trapped by no track of hours for they hanged suspended
As we listened one last time an' we watched with one last look
Spellbound an' swallowed 'til the tolling ended
Tolling for the aching whose wounds cannot be nursed
For the countless confused, accused, misused, strung-out ones an' worse
An' for every hung-up person in the whole wide universe
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.


Perhaps they are all hung up all te **** as we say in England when we mean bigtime.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:13 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:

As a teenager who, had a student teacher who was engaged at the time, try it on me and me, put some makeup on, only to hide it when I got home, only to get sprung cause mascara does show..

It is in-excusable for a teacher to flirt with the intention of anything else.

Fortunately for me, I was a Virgin so he wouldn't do anything. Scared? You bet ya.

It's easy for a teenager to fall for her teacher or (sinc) his. They are mentors.

Ok 18... No diff. Takes a while to grow up and mature.



Not replying directly to Found Soul, but this discussion is begging for a distinction to be made in the issues, because there are more than one.

If it's the age of the student, well, we have set 18 as an arbitrary dividor between childhood and adulthood. At that age, they can move out of the parental household, vote, and join the military all without parental or legal restraint. In other words, if that's the issue, I just don't see the issue. We know there are some that age with terrible judgment, but that seems to be the age we have selected, though some have argued that it could be much lower, and some that it could be a bit higher.

If the issue is the difference in age, that's fine, but bad judgement by itself shouldn't be a cause for criminal prosecution. I've heard nothing about this individual case outside this discussion, and there might be other information, but the difference in age doesn't sound like a criminal problem.

If the issue is the relationship between student and teacher, I do see potential problems. They sound like problems to be dealt with by school policy rather than criminal procedings.
aidan
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And if you honestly cannot see the difference between male teachers hitting on young women and female teachers hitting on young men...I am positive you will not understand my position no matter how clearly I articulate it.


Well, I don't really get why the gender of the teacher makes that much of a difference.
What bothers me is that this is a 28 year old married woman with three children who is playing sex games with teenaged boys.

It bothers me just the same as if it was a 28 year old married father of three playing sex games with teenaged girls.

The fact that it is THEIR teacher is problematic.
Say one of the boys was 18 and he met a 22 year old girl who'd just graduated from college and was doing her first year of teaching at a highschool in a neighboring town and they liked each other and started courting and you know, whatever...and then same thing- a 22 year old man just out of college and doing his first year of teaching met an 18 year old girl that he liked...you know, whatever.

If my 18 year old daughter met a 22 year old guy who was a teacher somewhere- but not HER teacher- if he was a nice guy, I'd not have a problem with her seeing him.

But you don't use your position as a teacher to pick up sex partners at school. Maybe one of these guys fell in love with this woman. Maybe it was the one who had sex with her on his own who blew the whistle because he loved her and he found out she was playing him.

This woman used these boys. She wasn't looking for love or a relationship, and the problem is that they might have been idealistically thinking that's what it was about (at least the one that wasn't involved in the five-way sex with her).

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:18 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I can see that the lady is going to have to lose her teacher's certificate but one day in jail is plain ridiculous


not if you are a sympathizer of the feminists, as this is a small part of their ongoing drive to use the state legal apparatus to forcibly remove power play from sex.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:20 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
This woman used these boys.
and they used her.....it was win/win.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:23 pm
@aidan,
I agree. In fact, I thought my most recent reply was pretty much in agreement with an earlier post of yours, though phrased quite differently.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:27 pm
@roger,
What you are saying makes sense too, roger. I favor keeping it illegal for teachers to have sex with students, whatever the age. The way to enforce it is the big question. I don't favor twenty year sentences, but it needs to have enough teeth to make the teacher think twice. In the case in point, they knew the law and broke it anyway. Hard to say what will be the outcome.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:31 pm
@roger,
BINGO!

Nail hit squarely on its head.

Thank you.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:33 pm
@spendius,
Thank you, Spendius. You made several excellent points here...and I hope some of the people on the other side of this issue consider them.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:33 pm
@roger,
Yeah, I don't know Roger. I only read the article that was linked, so I'm not quite sure why she's getting jail time if all of the students were over 18- although she was in a position of trust which she abused pretty much as ridiculously blatantly as anyone possibly could.

Maybe there's some legal caveat about that.
 

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