Re Hilary Clinton and Feminism.

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I saw a neat pic on facebook today that related a dumb ass question to the Secty of State, her laudable answer - but then, things got a little blurry.

Hilary was asked what designer she wore by a so-called news journalist. She asked the interviewer if he/she would ask that of a dude. So far, I'm WAY TO GO, CHICKY!

But then, Hilary is lauded as a great Feminist.

Does NO ONE remember her mocking Tammy Wynette, saying, "I'm no Stand by Your Man Woman," during the first Bill Clinton campaign? Do we remember she rode Bill's cheating coattails to the top and DID Stand by Her Man through all kinds of infidelities? Is her story the story of how a Feminist does it? Do we hold HER life up to our daughters as a model of how an independent woman makes her way in the world?

Why can't we applaud what is good - without whitewashing her whole disgusting life?

Where are you on Hilary the Great Feminist Icon issue?

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@Lash,

Quote:

Do we hold HER life up to our daughters as a model of how an independent woman makes her way in the world?

Feminism was supposed to be about equality with men, not about being independent of men, not about making men irrelevant. Sad

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without whitewashing her whole disgusting life?

Her WHOLE life? Really? She has done a lot of good works, and she has consistently stood by her family and been a great mother and wife by all accounts. That is "disgusting" in your books?

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@Lash,

My own guess is that she probably had a mix of reactions. She probably both liked and loved him to start with. Still loved him in a way but quite over him (?I think that's probable) in many other ways as time went on. Stayed for reasons I don't say I understand (perhaps vows even when he'd repeatedly not followed them), and her own calculations about what she wanted to do herself in political life. Whate'er is good or not so about her, I take her as able to calculate, so, as I said, it may have been a mix - of remnants of love and thoughts of her own role in politics.

It's hard to see into the heart of other people's marriages, and sometimes harder to see into your own.

I have a good friend who is quite the bold/aggressive woman, very capable, also attractive. She has stayed with her husband (whom she has strongly railed about to me, and, ha, to him.) She stayed because she said she would. That was their pact. In her case, infidelity wasn't going on, but anger could get huge.

I don't think feminism, whatever it is, and people describe it in many ways, equates with leaving a husband over fidelity. It may for plenty of women but feminists aren't cookie cut.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Where are you on Hilary the Great Feminist Icon issue?

I've never considered her any kind of feminist icon. Maybe 3rd or 4th wave, but definitely not leading edge.

Intellectually sterling. She's a woman who made decisions based on the choices available to her. I'm curious about what some of her options were as she was going along and what factored into the decisions she made. She seems to have been a very good mother and good (at least) life partner.

Disgusting? definitely not my read on her and her life so far.

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@ehBeth,

I agree with ehBeth's first and third paragraphs completely.

I was very, very disappointed with her presidential run -- how she conducted it, decisions she made, etc. I don't think she was at her best in that situation. I do think she's smart, though, and have been mostly pleased with how she's done as Secretary of State. (And have enjoyed the sunglasses on the plane meme.)

Sticking with Bill doesn't bother me much -- I don't see it as inherently an anti- feminist thing. I don't doubt that she was very angry at him and let him know that -- beyond that, whatever decisions they came to as a couple is between them.

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@sozobe,

Quote:

I don't doubt that she was very angry at him and let him know that -- beyond that, whatever decisions they came to as a couple is between them.

She has a deep anger and vindictiveness streak, turning that onto Bills bimbo's was totally not cool......

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@Lash,

I don't know or care about feminism. To me, it's about knowing who you are and living your life accordingly. Hillary appears to have done that. I don't see it as my business to know what she and Bill do or don't do to each other. She has moved steadily along and doing a damn good job of it. I wanted very much to get the chance to vote for her to be president.

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Thanks a lot, everybody. I was wanting opinions, and I got em...some pretty good ones. I read a biography that impressed me about her intellectual ability - and then watched her come on the national stage as an independent woman, and like a few here, noticed that she had to eat some of her strong statements - the Tammy Wynette crap.

She didn't come up through the ranks on her own, but grasping to her husband's rising star...so I make my own judgments about that. However, I have agreed with most of the calls she's made in her current position. And, I am glad there's at least one person in the current administration who I have a measure of confidence that she knows what the hell she's doing. So far.

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@Lash,

Dealing with infidelity is a deeply personal choice. Some people choose to work it out, and some people choose to walk.

I don't see it as being a feminist issue.

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@DrewDad,

Hillary –on Bill Clinton’s bimbo eruptions

Quote:

“Who is going to find out? These women are trash. Nobody’s going to believe them.”

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@hawkeye10,

"What the f*uck do you think you're doing? I know who that whore is. I know what she's here for. Get her out of here."
From the book :The Agenda: Inside the Clinton White House" by Bob Woodward. p. 245 - Hillary to President-Elect Clinton as she spots him talking to one of his reputed girlfriends at a going away celebration the day they left Little Rock for Washington, D.C.

"We have to destroy her!"
From the book "The Final Days: The Last Desperate Abuses Of Power By The Clinton White House" by Barbara Olson. p. 13 - Hillary regarding Gennifer Flowers and her long affair with Bill

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

She didn't come up through the ranks on her own, but grasping to her husband's rising star...

my perception was that she was pushing that star up - I don't think he'd have made it nearly as far as he did without her brains and determination

it wasn't unusual for couples in the 1970's and 1980's to make pretty calculated decisions about whose career was going to take first position. I saw it with many of my friends. Given my particular circle it was generally the women whose careers went first and the husbands stayed home with the kids, but it did go both ways and it was usually planned upfront.

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@ehBeth,

Agree on that, eh Beth.. both aspects, he raising him up and the career 'deals'. Those situations didn't always work out (I know, I know) but they were prevalent.

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Quote:

Hillary: "I am very lucky because my husband is my best friend and he and I have been together for a very long time. Longer than most of you have been alive. And we have an an endless conversation. We never get bored. We get deeply involved in all of the work that we do and talk about it constantly and I just feel very fortunate that I have a relationship that has been so meaningful to me over my adult life.”
Source: Michelle Levi. "Hillary Clinton on Matters of the Heart." CBSNews.com. 2/20/2009.

Hillary on dealing with their tough times together: "I am very grateful that I had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world thought."
Source: Cnn.com, June 7, 2007.

Hillary about Bill's infidelity: "I really had to dig down deep and think hard about what was right for me, what was right for my family. I never doubted Bill’s love for me ever, and I never doubted my faith and my commitment to our daughter and our extended family. The momentary feelings — you know, you are mad, you are really upset, you are disappointed — all of that goes through your mind ... I have found you really shouldn’t make decisions in the heat of those moments.”
Source: "Hillary Clinton Talks to Tyra About Bill's Infidelity", People.com, 1/15/2008

Quote:

Leon Panetta about the Clintons' marriage: "They've been through a lot of challenges as a couple, though in the end if you're with them together, you know there's something there that basically bonds them."
Source: Patrick Healy, NYTimes.com, "Clintons Balance Married and Public Lives", May 23, 2006.

source

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Marriage used be about working together for the family. Dont know if she is feminist or not but she has been sucessful both in her family and her career.

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@RABEL222,

You have quite a low threshold for a successful family.

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@ehBeth,

Perhaps, but how many wives during that period attempted to use their husband's position to obtain the same for themselves?

How many wives of CEOs, Plant Foremen, or steamfitters, used their husbands careers to get them the same positions after the Mister retired?

Hillary is a talented and intelligent woman, but she chose to take a shortcut to political success, recognizing and betting on the political genius of Bill Clinton.
On her own she never would have risen to such heights.

The measure of the sacrifice and effort she has put into her political career is not walking door to door in the rain to beg for votes, but in enduring the heartbreak and humiliation of her husband's roving pecker.

How this squares her with feminism is something I've no interest in calculating since the concept, to my way of thinking, is a construct attempting to gain an advantage through identity for the same challenge everyone seeking success faces.

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I was really hoping that the whole 'feminism' thing had finallly run its course. If we are to judge women by their commitment to something we call 'feminism', imo we are denigrating them as plain human beings. Do we admire men because of their 'masculism'? The expression we use is 'macho man' and that has fairly pejorative connotations. By now, after the faminism movement of the '70s and '80s, we should be over it and thinking of people as people, regardless of their gender.

Hillary Rodham Clinton has been a pretty darn good Secretary of State. That is all that counts.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Really?

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Really?

Really.

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Re Hilary Clinton and Feminism.

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