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Creationism is the claim. What is the evidence?

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:02 pm
fresco- I am going to have to read up on his ideas. You have piqued my interest. Thanks!
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:07 pm
Portal Star,

Single contradictions rarely make "a theory bunk". There follows a whole series of paradigm saving moves possibly followed by a "revolutionary shift".
(Kuhn's criticism of Popper).

In any case we are now in the scientific era where "probabilty" not "certainty" plays a central role and we would be wise to treat the word "evidence" with some scepticism.
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:19 pm
Portal,

Crossed in the post !

My reading stems from research I did in "pattern perception" many years ago which cannot be successfully approached by "traditional logic". This leads to the quest for "metalogical systems" and a general "non dualistic outllook".

If you take as a simple starting point that "logic" is an outcome of the maturation of cognitive processes in adults (Piaget), then it follows that logic cannot itself "explain" such cognition.

Whether this helps me get through the day is another matter ! :wink:
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:20 pm
fresco wrote:
Portal Star,

Single contradictions rarely make "a theory bunk". There follows a whole series of paradigm saving moves possibly followed by a "revolutionary shift".
(Kuhn's criticism of Popper).

In any case we are now in the scientific era where "probabilty" not "certainty" plays a central role and we would be wise to treat the word "evidence" with some scepticism.


That is the way it works in theory, anyway. You publish your findings in a major scientific journal, they publish it, other scientists replicate it. I'm sure a journal would not hesitate to publish somthing as groundbreaking as, say, a valid science study done which disproves natural selection, Einstiens physical body equtions, etc.

Probability does play a role, but there is still consistency in human observation and standardized observational tools. Our scope is limited (as you mentioned - theories about quantum physics, etc. We are a pea in a zillion football stadiums, maybe even an ion) but what we can see/observe is not invalid because of what we cannot. "Evidence" is consistencies within observable data supporting a viewpoint. Some scientific evidence (ex: measured data collection) is very straightforward, it is the interpretation of that data that I may or may not be skeptical about.
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:23 pm
fresco wrote:
Portal,

Crossed in the post !

My reading stems from research I did in "pattern perception" many years ago which cannot be successfully approached by "traditional logic". This leads to the quest for "metalogical systems" and a general "non dualistic outllook".

If you take as a simple starting point that "logic" is an outcome of the maturation of cognitive processes in adults (Piaget), then it follows that logic cannot itself "explain" such cognition.

Whether this helps me get through the day is another matter ! :wink:


Ah, philosophy. I like philosophy and understand the need for being able to reason our way through concepts on which we have/can gather no data. Your studies must have been very interesting.

I don't think I understand the second point you made. Why couldn't we be capable of understanding our own cognition (by observing the cognition of ourselves, someone similar to ourselves?)
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:33 pm
Portal,

You can't cut a knife with a knife.

(O.K. you can cut a diamond with a "harder" diamond but I think you get the drift)

Ultimately you have to examine what is meant by "explanation" and this often comes down to "prediction", but not without raising major epistemological issues including the "sociology of knowledge" and the "status of time" (re prediction since time has no "physical reality").....

All this is called trying to think outside the box.
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:46 pm
fresco wrote:
Portal,

You can't cut a knife with a knife.

(O.K. you can cut a diamond with a "harder" diamond but I think you get the drift)

Ultimately you have to examine what is meant by "explanation" and this often comes down to "prediction", but not without raising major epistemological issues including the "sociology of knowledge" and the "status of time" (re prediction since time has no "physical reality").....

All this is called trying to think outside the box.


No, don't get me wrong. I like that you think outside the box. It's good for your brain to see things from a different perspective. I am just baffled that you do it all the time. You live outside the box. There is no box. Very Happy
That makes you really interesting to talk to, I just didn't know how you did it. Now I think I understand - that's where your training is - which means you have a tremendous knowledge depth in the knowledge of not knowing *grin.*

You can't cut a knife with a knife but you can cut a knife with another knife. But I think I see what you mean. You cannot dissect logic with logic. I still don't think I agree with it though - I can describe logic and see what it does and how it works - because I am not logic. I am an outsider who can use logic.

You're right, we do explain then come up with theories in order to predict (test). But this knowledge assumption is why we have the internet, cars, and rocketships. Surely those things wouldn't work if this assumption was incorrect.

Iv'e always had trouble with the concept of time. I'm a real physical person - I like to see and touch and hear things, you know (no sexual jokes, please.) I will hold off on a discussion about time until I have time to read the steven hawking books I got for my birthday.
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 06:58 pm
Portal,

Yes ...scientific "success" wins us over, but the philosopher points out that short-term local "success" could be long term global "disaster".

At this point we might (reluctantly) be ready to trade anthropocentric "prediction and control" for holostic "sustainability".
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 07:15 pm
fresco wrote:
Portal,

Yes ...scientific "success" wins us over, but the philosopher points out that short-term local "success" could be long term global "disaster".

At this point we might (reluctantly) be ready to trade anthropocentric "prediction and control" for holostic "sustainability".


Yes, but then we're talking ecology. We are animals, we haven't reached our carrying capacity yet (maybe there won't be one until we consume all our resources and it kills everyone.) Scientific success doesn't necessarily equal global disaster. Sure, science created the car but it also helps us understand that we need to preserve land.

Sustainability - as in carrying capacity? As in progress is actually a hinderance to humankind because it gets us closer to expending our resources?
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Heywood
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 12:34 am
This is one of the better threads I've read in a while. Thanks for the brain food, guys Very Happy
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Wilso
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 01:03 am
Defender wrote:
Here's my problem with evolution: It's a theory, far from a scientific fact.


This statement displays your ignorance of the scientific process, as well as your definition of the word "theory".

The colloquial use of the word "theory" comes close to what scientists mean by a hypothesis. A theory eg Newton's theory of gravitation or Darwin's theory of natural selection, attempt to explain a great variety of phenomena. These theories don't become widely accepted in science unless their predictions stand up to thorough testing by experiments and observations.

Maybe gravitation is "just a theory" or maybe, just maybe, you're the one living in la la land!!!

I can refer you to at least one very thorough test of the theory of evolution, but since the Simpsons has just started, I'll do so later.
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Wilso
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:27 am
I suggest you read about the 11 year study done by Reznick & Endler on Trinidadian guppies and explain the life history changes in terms other than those provided by evolution. Maybe god waved his magic hand and caused the changes. Rolling Eyes
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Merry Andrew
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 04:51 am
Good responses, Wilso. More to the point, evolution itself is not a 'theory'. That living organisms evolve is a demonstrable fact. When people speak of 'evolutionary theory' (or, more properly, theories) they are referring to the mechanics of evolution. There is no general agreement on this. Darwinian theory differs from Lamarckian theory. But this does not alter the fact of evolution.
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Wilso
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 05:01 am
As an aside, a former professor at Wollongong university, has dedicated his entire career to studying the Lamarckian theory of evolution. I believe there is a publication in the works. Obviously he's not entirely popular in the biology community (his name escapes me at the moment).

HIs "former" status is not due to the direction of his research but because of a claim he made that he was pressured into upgrading failing marks by two "full fee paying" international students. (The fee structure here means that international students pay 3 to 4 times more than domestic students).
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fresco
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 06:28 am
Portal.

Yes, I'm not particularly an ecologist, but neither am I sure what "progress" is.
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lab rat
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 07:39 am
Quote:
So, you are basing your argument that mankind is different from animals on the premise that we have morality, self-awareness, and intelligence, and then submitting this as evidence of divine inspiration.

Well, yes, sort of . . .
I'm basing my argument on the premise that we have a soul, some manifestations of which are morality, self-awareness, and intelligence/free will. Your points on each of these manifestations are well-taken.
I guess I'm having a hard time defining "soul" because it is an abstract, scientifically unobservable quantity. According to my faith we are distinct from animals because we have a soul that is eternal; however, remove the faith and I have to admit you can't reach my belief system on the basis of science alone.
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Defender
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 12:03 pm
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QKid
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 01:18 pm
For all those evolutionists or believers of evolution, have you ever read a book called "The FACT of Evolution"? Hmmmm I didnt think so.

If evolution is fact, then why is it still called the "THEORY of Evolution"? Have any ideas guys?
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QKid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 01:22 pm
Wilso,

How can you even make the claim that maybe gravity is a theory also? Where do you get this stuff from? Maybe too much cartoons???
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 01:24 pm
fresco wrote:
Portal.

Yes, I'm not particularly an ecologist, but neither am I sure what "progress" is.


I think I know exactly what you mean. Would take longer than my lunch break to describe, though.
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