Creationism is the claim. What is the evidence?

IronLionZion wrote:

The fact remains, if we imbue God with the ability to come from nothing,

i'm not suggesting that God came from nothing or anything....God has no beginning....he is outside of time...HE HAS NO BEGINNING

0 Replies

micah wrote:

IronLionZion wrote:
The fact remains, if we imbue God with the ability to come from nothing,

i'm not suggesting that God came from nothing or anything....God has no beginning....he is outside of time...HE HAS NO BEGINNING

And you are claiming that on the basis of which evidence?

0 Replies

micah wrote:

IronLionZion wrote:
The fact remains, if we imbue God with the ability to come from nothing,

i'm not suggesting that God came from nothing or anything....God has no beginning....he is outside of time...HE HAS NO BEGINNING

As I, and others, have stated earlier, if time is a property of the universe created by the Big Bang, the universe has no beginning either (as it has existed as long as time has existed), and as such, does not require a creator. Which brings us back to my Keira Knightley analogy.

0 Replies

IronLionZion wrote:

micah wrote:
IronLionZion wrote:
The fact remains, if we imbue God with the ability to come from nothing,

i'm not suggesting that God came from nothing or anything....God has no beginning....he is outside of time...HE HAS NO BEGINNING

As I, and others, have stated earlier, if time is a property of the universe created by the Big Bang, the universe has no beginning either (as it has existed as long as time has existed), and as such, does not require a creator. Which brings us back to my Keira Knightley analogy.

there is no logic in what you have said here....

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

micah wrote:
IronLionZion wrote:
The fact remains, if we imbue God with the ability to come from nothing,

i'm not suggesting that God came from nothing or anything....God has no beginning....he is outside of time...HE HAS NO BEGINNING

And you are claiming that on the basis of which evidence?

on the basis of common sense...supported by the bible

0 Replies

micah wrote:

there is no logic in what you have said here....

How now, brown cow?

0 Replies

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous excecutions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, wiuth which more than half the bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of god. It is a histoey of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. --Thomas Paine

0 Replies

Every man conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience. ... If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it; if I could now conceive that the general Government might ever be so administered as to render liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. ... Be assured, Gentlemen, that I entertain a proper sense of your fervent supplications to God for my temporal and eternal happiness. - George Washington To United Baptist Churches of Virginia, 05/1789

Spiritual Tyranny. Today they call it Separation of Church and State, a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson, which they have twisted completely away from what he meant.

0 Replies

micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Micah can't even contemplate the possibility that that EXISTENCE always has existed

you don't know me well enough to speculate on what i have contemplated....

all you can do is insult....

When we did try to find out more about you, you lie. Instead of using your own words, your quote misinformed websites. Who is to blame for us not knowing you?

Micah-
"but still....something can not come from nothing...unless that 'something' is an eternal all powerful God who is outside of time....our finite minds can not fully fathom a God outside of time that has no beginning...yet, this must be, because logically, something can not come from nothing."

Unless somthing has always existed, only in different forms. There may be no such thing as beginning and end for our indivual building blocks (although there are for the collections of those building blocks we know as ourselves.) Are you familiar with the conceps of conservation of energy and matter?

0 Replies

micah wrote:

Every man conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience. ... If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it; if I could now conceive that the general Government might ever be so administered as to render liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. ... Be assured, Gentlemen, that I entertain a proper sense of your fervent supplications to God for my temporal and eternal happiness. - George Washington To United Baptist Churches of Virginia, 05/1789

Spiritual Tyranny. Today they call it Separation of Church and State, a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson, which they have twisted completely away from what he meant.

I suppose you are aware of the differences between the Baptist Churches of the eighteenth century and those of the twenty-first? The eighteenth century Baptists had more in common with the twenty-first century Universalist Unitarians than with the brimstone encrusted hate spewing Southern Baptist Convention that has produced Fred Phelps and his ilk.

0 Replies

Quote:

I'm interested in hearing you explain how we are different from animals in any way that supports creationism. Are you talking about conscioussness, sentience, morality?

Why this belief is essential to creationism:
From the book of Genesis: God created man in His own image. Since God is spirit, not a physical being, "in His own image" implies some intangible quality given specifically (& only) to man. Conventionally (within the churches I've been to), that intangible quality is considered to be our "soul". As I'm sure you're aware, the soul is that part of us that Christians consider to be eternal, thus setting us apart from animals, veggies, etc. and encompasses our self-awareness, morality, to some extent our will, . . .
How are we different from animals re: creationism?
* this is ironic, I know, but humans appear unique in their tendency to believe in a higher power. Ancient human cultures that developed completely separately from each other nevertheless frequently shared some sort of belief in a god or gods. Christians believe that that is because God has left His print on our soul so that we can never be complete without Him--hence a natural longing of the human spirit for a relationship with a higher power.
* science: while animals may learn through experience and may even be creative at times, you'll never see even the most intelligent monkey or dolphin set up an experiment to further its academic ability. Humans appear unique in their desire to learn for the sake of learning. From the creationist standpoint that is because we were created to "rule over the earth and subdue it", hence a natural desire to understand nature.

I'll work on a few more examples if I get time--I haven't thought a lot of this all the way through yet, so I expect some critiques.

0 Replies

micah wrote:

Every man conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience. ... If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it; if I could now conceive that the general Government might ever be so administered as to render liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. ... Be assured, Gentlemen, that I entertain a proper sense of your fervent supplications to God for my temporal and eternal happiness. - George Washington To United Baptist Churches of Virginia, 05/1789

Spiritual Tyranny. Today they call it Separation of Church and State, a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson, which they have twisted completely away from what he meant.

Woah, you mean you want the government to have a predominant religion? Separation of church and state was one of the best decisions that happned in this county. Not only are you free to worship any way you want, but you get tax discounts for doing it.

Are you familiar with the Catholic-Protestant wars? That's leaving other religions aside, just within different sects of christianity they were peeling each other's flesh off over these decisions. I thank the lord we do not invoke his name in politics!

0 Replies

lab rat wrote:

Quote:
I'm interested in hearing you explain how we are different from animals in any way that supports creationism. Are you talking about conscioussness, sentience, morality?

Why this belief is essential to creationism:
From the book of Genesis: God created man in His own image. Since God is spirit, not a physical being, "in His own image" implies some intangible quality given specifically (& only) to man. Conventionally (within the churches I've been to), that intangible quality is considered to be our "soul". As I'm sure you're aware, the soul is that part of us that Christians consider to be eternal, thus setting us apart from animals, veggies, etc. and encompasses our self-awareness, morality, to some extent our will, . . .
How are we different from animals re: creationism?
* this is ironic, I know, but humans appear unique in their tendency to believe in a higher power. Ancient human cultures that developed completely separately from each other nevertheless frequently shared some sort of belief in a god or gods. Christians believe that that is because God has left His print on our soul so that we can never be complete without Him--hence a natural longing of the human spirit for a relationship with a higher power.
* science: while animals may learn through experience and may even be creative at times, you'll never see even the most intelligent monkey or dolphin set up an experiment to further its academic ability. Humans appear unique in their desire to learn for the sake of learning. From the creationist standpoint that is because we were created to "rule over the earth and subdue it", hence a natural desire to understand nature.

I'll work on a few more examples if I get time--I haven't thought a lot of this all the way through yet, so I expect some critiques.

well said...

0 Replies

lab rat wrote:

Quote:
I'm interested in hearing you explain how we are different from animals in any way that supports creationism. Are you talking about conscioussness, sentience, morality?

Why this belief is essential to creationism:
From the book of Genesis: God created man in His own image. Since God is spirit, not a physical being, "in His own image" implies some intangible quality given specifically (& only) to man. Conventionally (within the churches I've been to), that intangible quality is considered to be our "soul". As I'm sure you're aware, the soul is that part of us that Christians consider to be eternal, thus setting us apart from animals, veggies, etc. and encompasses our self-awareness, morality, to some extent our will, . . .
How are we different from animals re: creationism?
* this is ironic, I know, but humans appear unique in their tendency to believe in a higher power. Ancient human cultures that developed completely separately from each other nevertheless frequently shared some sort of belief in a god or gods. Christians believe that that is because God has left His print on our soul so that we can never be complete without Him--hence a natural longing of the human spirit for a relationship with a higher power.
* science: while animals may learn through experience and may even be creative at times, you'll never see even the most intelligent monkey or dolphin set up an experiment to further its academic ability. Humans appear unique in their desire to learn for the sake of learning. From the creationist standpoint that is because we were created to "rule over the earth and subdue it", hence a natural desire to understand nature.

I'll work on a few more examples if I get time--I haven't thought a lot of this all the way through yet, so I expect some critiques.

I see those as characteristics of humans and not necessarily evidence of the existance of g-d. There are reasons we have these skills and they are compatible with the way we live - our opposable thumbs allow us to build tools, our large brains help with that so developing brains is useful to us, and we have a complex hierarchical social structure. It is my personal belief that combinatino of social hierarchy and thought lead to belief in g-d. We also can't speak dog, dolphin, or monkey so we can't really rule out those interactions. It would be difficult to tell that humans believed in dieties without being able to communicate with them (pictorally or verbally.)

I am also sure you recognize the bible as a social tool and how it was catered to its specific time period (even if dictated by g-d, it was humans who were writing it for their contemporary human audience.) Many of the stories are parables on which to base conductions of social life/ethics and some are responses/updates to the old testament. So I think it may be a mistake, even if you believe in a Christian g-d, to try to find consistent historical/scientific factual detail in the bible.

Despite the fact that we disagree, it is so refreshing to hear arguments from a person who knows what he is talking about. I have no problem with your faith (it seems to be of benefit to you and not of any hinderance to your thinking like ahem. Micah) I am very thankful to have you in this discussion.

0 Replies

Portal Star wrote:

Woah, you mean you want the government to have a predominant religion?

did i say that? no...i only quoted the father of our nation...

0 Replies

a spanner for your works, all who consider man's use of language to be what sets him apart:Prarie dogs are people too!

Quote:

KNAU/NPR Newsroom : Archive features
Decoding the Prairie Dog Language

Sadie Babits
August 29, 2003

Do you ever wonder what animals are saying? Two Northern Arizona University professors do. They are studying the sounds prairie dogs make, trying to decipher their language. As Arizona Public Radio's Sadie Babits reports they now believe they have a basic understanding of what these creatures are saying.

Listen with RealAudio

Researchers and scientists have long been skeptical about animals having their own language. But work by two Northern Arizona University professors may one day turn those skeptics into believers. They are studying prairie dogs and the sounds they make when a predator, like a coyote, is nearby. As Arizona Public Radio's Sadie Babits reports they now believe they have a basic understanding of prairie dog language and their work could open the door for deciphering other animal sounds.

There are the makings of a Nebula Award winning story here. Excuse me for a few months.....

0 Replies

hobitbob wrote:

a spanner for your works, all who consider man's use of language to be what sets him apart:Prarie dogs are people too!

Quote:
KNAU/NPR Newsroom : Archive features
Decoding the Prairie Dog Language

Sadie Babits
August 29, 2003

Do you ever wonder what animals are saying? Two Northern Arizona University professors do. They are studying the sounds prairie dogs make, trying to decipher their language. As Arizona Public Radio's Sadie Babits reports they now believe they have a basic understanding of what these creatures are saying.

Listen with RealAudio

Researchers and scientists have long been skeptical about animals having their own language. But work by two Northern Arizona University professors may one day turn those skeptics into believers. They are studying prairie dogs and the sounds they make when a predator, like a coyote, is nearby. As Arizona Public Radio's Sadie Babits reports they now believe they have a basic understanding of prairie dog language and their work could open the door for deciphering other animal sounds.

There are the makings of a Nebula Award winning story here. Excuse me for a few months.....

That's awesome. It's about time. In my opinion, Animal behaviorists don't get enough respect. Like sexologists, it was a taboo subject for a long time. I'm not sure why, though. Maybe because it is akin to sociology which just made is a newly formed "soft science" (lack of math)?

0 Replies

micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
can you not conceive of existence as always having been?

yes i can conceive that....many have wondered if our universe has undergone MANY bigbangs....constantly banging, and then petering out only to have gravity eventually suck everything in again to create the next bigbang...i'm familar with cosmic background radiation...i'm even familar with the newest findings which virtually prove that our universe is not only expanding, its accelerating and that eventually (possibly) all matter will be broken up in an ever-expanding nothingness...

but still....something can not come from nothing...unless that 'something' is an eternal all powerful God who is outside of time....our finite minds can not fully fathom a God outside of time that has no beginning...yet, this must be, because logically, something can not come from nothing.

Okay, Micah.

And of course, there is no way you or I or any of the scientists KNOW for certain right now whether what we call "the universe" is actually THE UNIVERSE. This universe may be, as you suggested it could be, one of a never ending series of Big Bangs. Or it may be just a infinitesimally small part of a much, much larger MEGAVERSE.

We truly do not know.

But in a post subsequent to this one, you replied to IronLionZion with:

Quote:

IronLionZion wrote:
The fact remains, if we imbue God with the ability to come from nothing,

i'm not suggesting that God came from nothing or anything....God has no beginning....he is outside of time...HE HAS NO BEGINNING

I ask again: Can you conceive of EXISTENCE having no beginning -- being outside of time -- like this god you want to interject.

My point is: If you can conceive of a god that has no beginning -- why can you not conceive of EXISTENCE as having no beginning -- without the need for gods to bring it into being?

0 Replies

We all know what is at the end of the universe:
A restauraunt with Dent, Arthur Dent, Trillian, Zaphob Beeblebrox, and Ford Prefect as customers, Peter Davison as the Roast, and Marvin in the carpark!

"Marvin, what have you been doing here for a million years?"

"PARKING CARS..WHAT ELSE WOULD ONE DO IN A CARPARK! <sigh> BRAIN THE SIZE OF A PLANET AND HERE I AM IN THIS STUPID CARPARK. I'M SOOO DEPRESSED!"

0 Replies

frank, because God is not matter...

0 Replies

Creationism is the claim. What is the evidence?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know