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Creationism is the claim. What is the evidence?

 
 
lab rat
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:11 pm
Re: the prairie dog study:
There is another study I read about somewhere that dealt with a type of monkey in the jungle (Indonesia maybe?) This species of monkey had three different "alert" calls--one for a predator in the air (eagle, hawk, etc.), one for a predator in the trees (snake, cat), and one for predators on the ground (humans). Pretty neat, eh? Sorry I don't remember the source.
Note that I for one didn't claim that humans are unique in their use of language 8)
Portalstar--thanks for the welcome
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Defender
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:20 pm
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IronLionZion
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:30 pm
micah wrote:
Every man conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience. ... If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it; if I could now conceive that the general Government might ever be so administered as to render liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. ... Be assured, Gentlemen, that I entertain a proper sense of your fervent supplications to God for my temporal and eternal happiness. - George Washington To United Baptist Churches of Virginia, 05/1789


Spiritual Tyranny. Today they call it Separation of Church and State, a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson, which they have twisted completely away from what he meant.


The statement you quoted does not seem to be an attack against secularism. Rather, Washington is defending the secularist nature of the constitution, and saying that he would not have supported it if it interfered with peoples ability to practice thier religion freely. In any case, it is a red herring.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:36 pm
Defender, not bad except that you fall into the trap of treating evolution and progress as synonymous terms. They are not. Evolution does not imply progress toward some Jardinian "Omega." It simply refers to adaptation by mutation. This is is a common mistake also made by the opponents of evolutionary theory.
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IronLionZion
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:54 pm
lab rat wrote:

Why this belief is essential to creationism:
From the book of Genesis: God created man in His own image. Since God is spirit, not a physical being, "in His own image" implies some intangible quality given specifically (& only) to man. Conventionally (within the churches I've been to), that intangible quality is considered to be our "soul". As I'm sure you're aware, the soul is that part of us that Christians consider to be eternal, thus setting us apart from animals, veggies, etc. and encompasses our self-awareness, morality, to some extent our will, . . .

How are we different from animals re: creationism?
* this is ironic, I know, but humans appear unique in their tendency to believe in a higher power. Ancient human cultures that developed completely separately from each other nevertheless frequently shared some sort of belief in a god or gods. Christians believe that that is because God has left His print on our soul so that we can never be complete without Him--hence a natural longing of the human spirit for a relationship with a higher power.
* science: while animals may learn through experience and may even be creative at times, you'll never see even the most intelligent monkey or dolphin set up an experiment to further its academic ability. Humans appear unique in their desire to learn for the sake of learning. From the creationist standpoint that is because we were created to "rule over the earth and subdue it", hence a natural desire to understand nature.


So, you are basing your argument that mankind is different from animals on the premise that we have morality, self-awareness, and intelligence, and then submitting this as evidence of divine inspiration.

First of all, I'd point out that sentience is largely a construction - it's not like there's a big black line between us and apes, who are just as capable of self-identification etc etc etc as we are. I'd argue further that language, which has obvious evolutionary benefits, and a larger brain, which offers the same story, allows for more advanced consciousness in us than, say, squirrels. More likely still, the unusually long maturation rate for human young allows for a fairly fluid sense of identity largely instructed by outside influence, which in turn can lead to more questioning and divergence in self-definition. This breeds self-awareness in the sense I believe you use it. All of this is neatly tucked away in the confines of evolution, and in no way supports divine creation.

If you are implying that our above average intelligence and sentience is evidence of some fundamental divide - an attribute that we possess that separates us from all other animals, and in turn, is evidence that God wanted us to be different - I have to disagree. The problem is that I could just as easily rephrase the statement from the framework of a Lemur: "If Lemur-Rah didn't want us to be so awesome, why did he give us this bitchin' prehensile tail?" There is no catagorical separation between a Lemur's prehensile tail and our larger brains - they are both evolutionary adaptions that allow us to survive and thrive in our respective evolutionary niches.

I find the idea that morality is somehow evidence of divine inspiration to be particularly lacking. It seems abundantly obvious to me that morality is not restricted to humans - in fact, it is ubiquitous to every social animal, from a pod of whales to a troop of monkeys. It is a survival mechanism designed to keep the social order we depend on for survival intact.
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Defender
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 03:09 pm
Now I'm being confronted by a Hobit!!!

Only on Able2Argue!!!!

God bless you, Bob!!!
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 03:19 pm
Yes, well, gives me something to do before second breakfast, eh? Very Happy
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 03:34 pm
micah wrote:
frank, because God is not matter...



Well, neither is EXISTENCE, Micah.

And perhaps the universe is not matter either.

The stuff of the universe is made up of molecules - which are made up of atoms - which are made up of sub-atomic particles - which are made up of quanta.

And the vast majority of each of those things is - space. Nothingness - except EXISTENCE.

So why not simply assert that we do not know what the nature of EXISTENCE and REALITY is - and we do not know how to account for the fact that it appears to all of us TO BE?

Why make the guess that a god is necessary for it to be?

There is no logical reason for a god to be needed.

That is not to say there is no god - but there certainly is not a necessity for one as you are arguing.

Do you see that?
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micah
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 03:55 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you see that?


i understand your point....i understand what you are saying....my heart tells me otherwise though....

i feel like keanu from the matrix thats been freed and can only battle for the rest to be awakened...

how can i deny my heart? i can't...my heart tells me there is a creator and that creator is Jesus....
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 04:09 pm
Quote:
i understand your point....i understand what you are saying....my heart tells me otherwise though....


There is your problem, in a nutshell. The heart is NOT an organ of cognition.......the brain is.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 04:29 pm
micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you see that?


i understand your point....i understand what you are saying....my heart tells me otherwise though....

i feel like keanu from the matrix thats been freed and can only battle for the rest to be awakened...

how can i deny my heart? i can't...my heart tells me there is a creator and that creator is Jesus....


I can understand your dilemma, Micah.

Let's not push this for now.

We'll talk more in other threads.

Phoenix is correct that your "heart" cannot tell you anything. That is, as I am sure you realize, an expression used when the logic of a situation is so unappetizing, it has to be avoided at all costs.

Peace to you, Micah.

f.

P.S. - I loved The Matrix.
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satt fs
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 04:30 pm
Computers do not have hearts, humans do.
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Algis Kemezys
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 04:53 pm
SETH used to say "You create your own reality through your thoughtsand ideas. Relativitly speaking I think this is correct in most cases. But things are fragmenting fast out there.
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:00 pm
Phoenix,

Up to last week I would have agreed with your statement.....

""The heart is NOT an organ of cognition.......the brain is""

.......however it seems that some workers on cognition (e.g. Maturana) now see the brain as only part of the story with the endocrine system playing an equally important role. So even if the "heart" is out, the "guts" may be in !
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:45 pm
Hobitbob,

I agree with you that "evolution" and "progress" are not synonymous, but as I said earlier it is no longer thought that random mutations alone can account for the pace of evolution. This "problem" which sometimes delights creationists is being dealt with using the new methods of "dynamic systems theory" but at the expense of taking a step "up" from the level of traditional logical rhetoric towards a more abstract mathematical coherence. The situation becomes similar to that arrived at in physics in which "quantum theory" is successful (predictively), but eludes "normal rationality".
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:49 pm
Quote:
So even if the "heart" is out, the "guts" may be in !


fresco-I agree on the "guts". Have not read up on Maturana, but I certainly could see a connection. When a person has a "gut feeling" his brain is making connections that are expressed somatically.
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:53 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Defender, not bad except that you fall into the trap of treating evolution and progress as synonymous terms. They are not. Evolution does not imply progress toward some Jardinian "Omega." It simply refers to adaptation by mutation. This is is a common mistake also made by the opponents of evolutionary theory.


Agreed. Also,

Defender-
"The institution of science, if compared to a country, would not resemble a free democratic society, but a dictatorship. Conform, don't introduce new ideas, stick to the plan."

This is not true. Any scientific theory, or even scientific LAW when contracticted -even once- is bunk. They have to either modify the theory or discard it completely. The more continually confirmed with evidence the theory is, the stronger it becomes, but all it takes is one example of inconsistience at any time for it to be broken.

There are new ideas being introduced all the time.
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fresco
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:55 pm
Phoenix,

Maturana actually goes further and defines "life" as "cognition"....this seems to echo Piaget's views on "life" and "intelligence" (organizational schemata) but I havn't found any cross references yet.
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Portal Star
 
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Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:56 pm
micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you see that?


i understand your point....i understand what you are saying....my heart tells me otherwise though....

i feel like keanu from the matrix thats been freed and can only battle for the rest to be awakened...

how can i deny my heart? i can't...my heart tells me there is a creator and that creator is Jesus....


No one is arguing with your heart, Micah. You can be religious if you wan't, it is your choice. The problem comes from when you try to make the world around you form to your beliefs (when it doesn't.)
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2004 05:57 pm
fresco wrote:
Hobitbob,

I agree with you that "evolution" and "progress" are not synonymous, but as I said earlier it is no longer thought that random mutations alone can account for the pace of evolution. This "problem" which sometimes delights creationists is being dealt with using the new methods of "dynamic systems theory" but at the expense of taking a step "up" from the level of traditional logical rhetoric towards a more abstract mathematical coherence. The situation becomes similar to that arrived at in physics in which "quantum theory" is successful (predictively), but eludes "normal rationality".


Right, but where does that leave Jesus? I don't think that argument is helpful to biblical creationists at all.

I started a conversation with you earlier about this, but left it behind because I hadn't time to do the reading. I'm going to mention it again, with the same guilty plea.
Fresco, you have a way of intelligently complicating a situation that I find fascinating. You site a wealth of evidence (you've read) for the existence of nonexistence (which I cannot directly argue with, having not read it.) Evidence for existence = everything we know. Evidence for non-existence = that none of the evidence we have is confirmed by some other source of evidence than personal experience that it exists. You are so strange to me, I imagine you must get up in the morning, pour your coffee into your mug upside-down and get back into bed. If you have these beliefs, how do you conduct your day-to-day interactions? Why even bother to read?
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