Its Independence Day!! And Im about to get really obnoxious about it! LOL

Thack, you ignorant slut . . . should we shoot the messenger?

Not to mention the title of Gracie's thread. Everyone who dislikes goofy displays of patriotism had a fair warning, and had no reason to even read the thread. The only reason I can think of is that they wanted to feel indignant and superior about something, and that the thread title signaled an opportunity for it.

I'm willing to say, "My country right or wrong". I love my country, and one of the things I love about it is my freedom to criticize my government, and protest its policies, and my freedom to become involved in effecting change. And I've done a great deal of that in my lifetime, and I've seen a great deal of positive change come about. Throughout it all, my love of country has been constant, it's not a conditional love.

And on Independence Day, I am unequivocally willing to celebrate the act that led to the founding of this country. The signing of The Declaration of Independence was an act of great courage fueled by a commitment to freedom, and the right of self-determination, and the impetus to institute a government which derived it's powers from the consent of the governed and would insure the rights to, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Those values are as valid today as they were on July 4th, 1776. Those are the values that brought my grandparents to this country and allowed them to escape the rather oppressive conditions into which they had been born, and which allowed their grandchildren to thrive in an atmosphere of freedom.

Gracie really is right. Independence Day is all about celebrating freedom. And there is no reason she should succumb to cynicism, or have to assume a jaded attitude, or even have to consider the stumbles our country has taken in pursuit of its ideals. They couldn't yet celebrate that freedom on July 4th, 1776, it was still in the future, but Gracie is right to celebrate it today--with all the flag-waving hoopla she can muster--and I didn't find her exuberance about it at all obnoxious, it was rather refreshing.

ah. "reeks"

carry on.

LOL!!!!

...ceptin if ye are a negro or in possession of ladyparts ...or basically not pretty wealthy and white. But, nice sentiment!!!

LOL!!! Oh, good stuff.

Frankly, I always believed that the people were saying more than "Nah. Nah-nah-nah-nah- nahhhh." But, I can't prove it.

Absolutely not.

Wouldn't he be totally stoked that this Fourth of July, there's a black dude in the Oval office?

There's no reason for budding JTTs on a cute, silly thread like this. Buzzkills with bad attitudes.

Lovely!

George Orwell said that is equivalent to saying "My mother, drunk or sober". Are you willing to say that?

Count me in on the "Three Cheers for Gracie" side. I read her posts and I think, maybe this is what a post-racial society in America will look like, when and if we finally get there, a kid who doesn't even have to think about it but just knows viscerally that ALL of us, black , white, red, yellow, green (if we should ever mutate to get our energy thru chlorophyll), gay or straight, female or male, are part of who we are and should be valued equally. She knows it and she says it.

But Snood is also right. Freedom's not free, sometimes you've got to fight for it, and maybe each generation has its struggle. Slavery wasn't centuries ago, Gracie. When I was a kid, there were still Americans alive who had been slaves (I am, granted, quite a bit older than you). Slavery's successor, segregation and inequality under the flourished for a century afterward. In the 60's, kids not a lot older than you are now said, "We're Americans. We believe in freedom. Prove to us that you really mean what you say," and started the Freedom Rides and the sit-ins, and the marches. I was fortunate to know some of them and work with them, .And that was only a cou0ple decades befoe you were born. And that didn't all end with the civil rights acts of 65 and 66. Things have improved, but we still have a political party that tries repeatedly to restrict the voting rights of black people and other minorities.

Maybe you got a little drunk on freedom, Gracie, but it was a happy drunk, not a mean one, and I think most of us enjoyed the good time you were having. And, yes, I agree that the San Diego fireworks were awesome--a bit short to be sure, but fantastic while they lasted.

It's not going to be long before we leave the country in your hands, and I think they'll be good ones. Maybe your fight will be for a fair immigration policy--maybe your school is one of the ones where the ICE swoops in and takes away some of your fellow students who've grown up alongside you and think of themselves as Americans tho they were brought here when they were babies as illegal immigrants. Their fellow students and administrators have marched and organized and protested, and often won. Your generation is going to have some kind of chance to define again what being American and being free is all about. That's what that Springsteen song is all about, "Wherever this flag is flown, We take care of our own." I;m certain you've shown you'll do the right thing. Good on ya, Gracie.











that's what that

I see you're comparing yourself to Faulkner. I can't say I'm surprised, and I'm sure were Faulkner alive today, he be thrilled to join such illustrious company.

I think you differ from Faulkner in one teensy way. Your thread was called A Modest Proposal, Faulkner's masterpiece wasn't called Macbeth, it was named after a quotation from Macbeth.

Other than that tiny detail though, you've got it nailed.

I'm sure you're right, Bubba . . .

Wow! Um. You guys sure made a big deal out of this.



Thanks dude



I know very very little about immigration and how that works and stuff so there's not much I can say about it I guess... I just dont get what the big deal is. I mean, America is a nation of immigrants right? So why would people immigrating here be a problem? And I know that we're not the only country that has immigration laws and deportation and stuff so it's not just an American thing. It's something we all have to work on. And like I said, we're not perfect. America has many flaws and the way we handle immigration may or may not be one of them. I dont know yet. I'll do some Googling later on and then we can discuss it.

Its hard to wrap my mind around all that happened with the Native Americans/American Indians and I know that what I learned in school about it isn't even the whole story. What happened to them is pretty freaking disgusting. But the horrible way our ancestors held themselves and the terrible things they did are in the past. It's history. Its not something we can change and no amount of money or land in the world can take all of that pain away. It happened, and it sucked but we've got to move on. And I'm not condoning what we did at all. Its was awful and I hate it and I'm really truly sorry that it happened. African Americans and Native Americans were tortured and humiliated and killed. I know how awful that is and I dont think its something we should ever forget. We were totally, completely, 100% wrong. But two hundred years of improvement and ONE BLACK PRESIDENT later should account for something. I dont agree with everything the U.S does but I love it here and I love how far we've come. Yeah, we're still pretty screwed in some areas and theres tons of stuff we're still working on but we've made soo much progress. I mean, look at how different our generations are. When you were around my age there was segregation and the Civil Rights Movement and I even talked with some of you guys about how scary it was here during the Cold War. It's soo weird to me. Everything was so different back then. Things have changed alot and things are still changing and I think that's really freaking awesome. Imagine how different it'll be when I'm 60 or 70 years old.

I love my country and I think the Fourth of July should be a day spent celebrating all the things we've done right and not dwelling on everything we've done wrong. You can either look at it from a positive perspective or a negative one.



LOL! Sorry. I was starting to get soo much crap that I couldn't tell.



Maxdancona,

I think snood missed the point of this thread. I understand what you guys are saying. I totally get it. But this thread was not meant to be taken seriously. I wasn't trying to make any political statements, I wasn't trying to offend anyone and I really didn't want to have any of these deep conversations about slavery and immigration and America's past. I know America has done terrible things, we've talked about them before on another thread. But America's done some pretty great things too. It's not like this is just a completely horrible and terrible country. And I can celebrate whenever, wherever and however I want.

I'm not blind maxdancona and I don't get how starting a Fourth of July thread and posting funny internet memes is equivalent to killing innocent people.

You guys are being ridiculous.

I smile when what you write about your intent for the thread exposes some of these alleged adults to the yammering petulant children that they are.

Objectively it seemed clear to me that you intended this to be a casual fun thread; however, due to their misguided nature, some poeple wouldn't know fun if it reached and bit them in the ass.

One of the most courageous persons I've ever known was the father, now deceased, of a childhood friend of mine. He was a World War II veteran who had served in the Pacific. As a white Southerner who became an attorney, he defied his racist bigot father and opposed racial discrimination against black Americans at a time when Jim Crow appeared to be invincible. Although I hated Jim Crow, I never would have had enough courage to do what he did. I believe he was cut from the same cloth as the Soviet dissidents who spoke out against the oppression in their own country. Since he represented black Americans in lawsuits against racial discrimination, he and the members of his family frequently received death threats. There were times when his children had to be escorted to school by the police. (Interestingly enough, although he supported liberal politicians because of the issue of civil rights, he was not uncritical of liberalism. He was independent enough in his political views to detest Teddy Kennedy because of Chappaquiddick.) In 1971 we learned that because of his civil rights activities, he had been spied upon by U.S. Army Intelligence (an oxymoron?) because he had been wrongfully viewed as a subversive. I was quite indignant about it at the time because I knew he was actually quite patriotic, but he just laughed about it. My friend's father performed an invaluable service to his country. His slogan was not "My country, right or wrong." He once told me his slogan was first articulated by a leading Republican in Lincoln's time: "My country. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right." He eventually became a law professor. He was "macho" in a way that most people, in my opinion, have never appreciated.

This was a man who, quite understandably, would have had every reason to become bitter; but he always had a positive outlook. I also remember that he would celebrate Independence Day quite enthusiastically, usually to the point of drinking too much.

Another really great post, Gracie! Way to go, girl!