Its Independence Day!! And Im about to get really obnoxious about it! LOL

Well yes, I'm not much of a fan of the Olympics, but I will take my little boy to see the Olympic flame. There's going to be a party, and I'm up for that.

Evidently we can only be critical of a country in which we've lived a good deal of life (or of which there are no members here). No one had a problem with me saying it...



...that may not be "right", or whatever, but it appears to be the way it works with us humans. I'd like to see a conversation about the worth of patriotism too, but it'd require the most general of terms to keep it out of the toilet, and I don't find that logistically feasible on a2k.

Thank you, thack.


I think you may be right there.
Ah well ....

Sounds good to me!
Did I dream it, or did I recently read something about an attempt to steal the Olympic flame?

that, by the way, wasn't a slam on the a2k community... more on human nature in general

Maybe all the anti-patriotism folks can start their own thread to have a conversation to express their disdain for all things patriotic ...

Well, the backlash against people ruinging Gracie's thread is understandable I guess,
BUT can you honestly name any circumstance where you would not be against saying anything negative about the USA?

When is bringing up the negative things about the country ever okay with you? (I don't mean just in some thread for people you obviously discard as disgruntled whiners. I mean when is it something you actually think is not a wrong thing to do.)

I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm (or anyone else posting here is) anti-patriotism. I just think it comes with inherent and unavoidable faults to the extent that two or more people cannot hold a civilized conversation about it for any extended period of time.


i just dislike it... or more correctly i guess, the celebration of it.

Back when I was an a x-ian, the folk would talk about one of the signs of the end times: one world government. It doesn't sound half bad, but separate nations probably work as a decent "check and balance" for humanity

“Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” George Bernard Shaw

Exactly

No, NOT exactly. That was Shaw's opinion. There are those who agree with it and those who do not.

So what's your point? I agree and you don't. My "exactly" just voiced my agreement. All ANYONE has here is their opinion, obviously.

I understand what you're saying, msolga, and I don't disagree with you.

But what's celebrated on July 4th is the birth of our country, and the displays of national pride, even those that are over-the-top, reflect that celebratory spirit and the fact that we've survived and thrived as a nation. What is at all "ugly" about that sort of national pride or the festivities that celebrate the signing of a document that put forth our national ideals and guiding principles, ideals and principles of government which were not wide-spread in the world on July 4th, 1776, and ideals and principles which successive generations in our country have worked to bring into fruition since that time.

I have no problems criticizing my own country's foreign or domestic policies at any given point in time, or in debating and discussing policies in my country's history with my fellow citizens or with people from other places, I just don't see those things as having any relevance or connection to what's being celebrated on the 4th of July. This nation, and it's government, wouldn't even be here to criticize if that Declaration hadn't been signed in 1776. I'm glad we're here, I'm glad I was born here, and I think that's what Gracie was saying too. Patriotism, just like organized religion, can have ugly aspects when it's used as a tool of abuse or to make others feel inferior. But that wasn't what Gracie was doing, she was expressing her love of her country on the one day of the year when we can enjoy some sense of national unity and pride in our country's ideals and guiding principles rather than focus on the differences that can, and often do, divide us.

Why is it necessary to present a "counter-view" to any of that, or to do it in this particular thread? Can't some celebrations ever be free of divisiveness, just to have some fun--and having some fun was clearly what Gracie was doing. Does even a fun thread at A2K have to become more serious or combative in tone?

Your country does not have a larger or more diverse multicultural population than mine does, and while that is one of the major sources of our cultural richness, it can, and has, lead to ugly episodes here too. I think that by focusing on the things that unite us--the ideals and guiding principals that unite and inspire us as a nation--we find the counter-balance to the internal diverseness and exclusionary forces that try to divide and weaken us by marginalizing segments of the population.

In the wake of 9/11, in the weeks and months that followed the attacks of that day, I saw a burst of genuine national patriotism and unity in my country as I had never before witnessed in my lifetime. And there was nothing corny or false or "ugly" about the American flags that seemed to be flying on every home and motor vehicle around here--they were true expressions of national pride and unity--unity of strength, and identification, and purpose, and resolve, and grief. It was very much a reflection of our "We" as a people. And "we" realized we have much more uniting us than dividing us, and many realized just how much they loved their country because it was suddenly threatened and attacked. And I found that overt display of unity and love of country quite stirring .

I don't want it to take a national tragedy like 9/11 to make displays of patriotism or a sense of national pride acceptable. I don't want young people, like Gracie, to feel they have to modulate, or qualify, or explain, or defend, their exuberance in celebrating the birth of our nation, or their love of country. Whether one liked, or disliked, the style in which she expressed herself, she is simply happy she was born in the U.S.A., and she chose a very appropriate occasion, Independence Day, to express those feelings, I don't know why anyone would feel compelled to try to counter-balance that sort of love of country and appreciation of citizenship. While people are certainly free to do that sort of thing, for their own reasons, and not everyone who did so was trying to incite ot agitate, it does throw an unnecessary damper on something intended to be a "fun" thread. Sometimes we should just allow ourselves, and others here, to have some fun.

Probably because it's more of a novelty. It's not so much of a novelty for us, what with certain posters constantly banging on about how America is much better than anywhere else, and expecting us to fall to our needs and thank you all for WW2.

You know who those people are, you're probably as sick of them as I am.

That doesn't sound like a definition of patriotism to me - that sounds like narcissism - the belief that someone's country is superior to all other countries because 'they' were born in it?!
Or maybe it's just a really awkward construction that doesn't really express what he means.

I think people love their countries and want to defend them and the way of life they experience there because, as with families, it is what they are most familiar with and most people find familiarity comforting and worth defending and preserving.

I'm not a particularly patriotic person - I've never owned a flag or waved it- and I certainly don't think my country is superior to all others because I was born there, but it is familiar to and comforting to me in a way that I can acknowledge anyone else would find the country of their birth familiar and comforting to them.

Gracie likes where she lives. I'm happy for her. It'd be pretty shitty to hate where you were born and have to live.

On the contrary. If some British kid came in here on whatever day you people celebrate Britain and created a similar thread, the same thing would happen.

The assholes would be assholes, and the relatively good-humored would have thought it was amusing.

I wish you all would stop reacting as if someone ravaged the poor girl. She'll be alright - she defends and speaks for herself quite well. That's one thing.

As for her "liking" where she lives, that's great. But what has a 14 year old got to base that on? Compared to what? She's had experience enough to mouth platitudes from a Lee Greenwood song, and parrot jingoism she's heard from others. She has every right to do so, to do it in a cutsie "look out! I'm about to get obnoxious!" thread, to do it standing on her goddam head on the roof. I don't care.

But everyone who's posted something here that was not flattering about the US has the same right.

Why don't you all who are defending her as if someone hijacked her Christmas or something get over YOURselves? You all are saying our posting negatives about the US here isn't appropriate. I acknowledge how that might be true from some perspectives. But the hysterical handwringing in defense of the sanctity of the thread is also a bit ******* much.

Your opinion is that Shaw's definition isn't a good one. I say it isn't definitive, but an interesting one, apropos to this discussion as a counterbalance. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

I haven't. I just expressed my feelings about the fourth of July and said I could understand hers. I don't consider her to have been ravaged or damaged at all. I have no idea what you're talking about.


I'm sure she will. Of that I'm not in doubt, and I haven't said or expressed any doubt as far as that goes.

How ******* condescending. You don't think that in fourteen years she has gained an understanding through living a life that goes beyond mouthing platitudes from Lee Greenwood songs and parroting jingoism.
And you work with kids you say - jesus!


Hate to tell you, but you sound like the hysteric here. I'm totally calm - thinking about hotdogs and Bruce Springsteen songs and fireworks.


Yep - but if I express mine, I'm handwringing and hysterical and sanctimonious. Alrightee...

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-5037835

Miss Olga suggested that the American adults here should have interferred somehow. Suggested that someone ought to have told Gracie that what she was posting was inappropriate, perhaps false--who knows exactly what she means when she begins to rant. If the idea is that everyone here has a right to post what they think, that's a pretty crappy idea. What's really intellectually offensive is the JTT attitude that so many people here display. That because some actions of the U.S. government have been execrable, all Americans are war criminals and should go through life with their heads hanging in shame. Snood, more than 140 years after slavery was outlawed, seems to be saying that we should all hang our heads in shame over the fact that there ever was slavery. Izzytheputz is prancing around proclaiming the superiority of his nation--although it seems he had no problem dredging up exactly the same kinds of patriotic images.

As i said, you lot are pathetic.