27
   

Judge Roberts backlash

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 11:11 pm
@snood,
I said that your position was perfectly understandable, and in return I get a lot of grief. Serves me right, I guess. I should know better by now. Instead of working yourself into a lather of self-righteousness, however, you might be better advised to read carefully what I wrote.

I hasten to add that's just a suggestion. God forbid I should be accused of patronizing you.
snood
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 06:26 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

I said that your position was perfectly understandable, and in return I get a lot of grief. Serves me right, I guess. I should know better by now. Instead of working yourself into a lather of self-righteousness, however, you might be better advised to read carefully what I wrote.

I hasten to add that's just a suggestion. God forbid I should be accused of patronizing you.


Oh, do forgive me. Please take my reply as likewise just a "suggestion" - that you keep your advice to yourself.
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 06:30 am
@snood,
You ask me a question. I answer it. You get all indignant. I'll know better next time.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:22 am
@snood,
I thinkthe left has also begun reying upon the results that come from the "Kennedy Court" . We owe Kennedy the same slack as voting principles and definitions as we do Roberts. I have to say that Roberts did give us all omething over which we can reflect .
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:22 am
@joefromchicago,
This was my question:

Quote:
But doesn't he (Thomas) mirror Scalia in about every opinion?


This was your answer:

Quote:
Thomas is actually much more of a constitutional absolutist than Scalia, and they have very different views concerning precedent (Scalia will follow well-established precedent even if he thinks it was decided wrongly, Thomas won't). They usually end up voting the same way, but they don't always share the same reasons for their votes.


Done deal – nuff said. End of exchange...
But then, you volunteered this bit of unsolicited advice ( or suggestion, as you would have it):

Quote:
If all you're interested in is counting votes, that's a perfectly understandable position to take. If you're interested in understanding those votes, however, you do need to dig a little deeper.


Your interest in understanding the SCOTUS’ individual rationalizations for votes is yours; you presumed it should be others’, as well. I stand by my suggestion you leave off that kind of presumption. All that about my "indignance" (is that like uppitiness)?– well, you’re being a little prickly yourself, just because I reject your sage advice.


farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:23 am
@snood,
Quote:
What does the level of my (or anyone's) understanding about the reasoning the justices exercise have to do with the effects their decisions have?
I found them fascinating and compelling. Go back and read the NYT takes on all their votes and see if you couldnt make a great story from each position.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:24 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I thinkthe left has also begun reying upon the results that come from the "Kennedy Court" . We owe Kennedy the same slack as voting principles and definitions as we do Roberts. I have to say that Roberts did give us all omething over which we can reflect .


No doubt. And I do. I was simply reacting to someone presuming to advise me to reflect.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:24 am
@snood,
Also, (gads) Im beginning to doubt Sotamayors capacity at abstract thought every bit as much as I know about Thomas's
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:28 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
What does the level of my (or anyone's) understanding about the reasoning the justices exercise have to do with the effects their decisions have?
I found them fascinating and compelling. Go back and read the NYT takes on all their votes and see if you couldnt make a great story from each position.


I have looked more closely at certain media discussions about the SCOTUS, and will read more about this latest. No doubt there is a lot to think about.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 07:29 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Also, (gads) Im beginning to doubt Sotamayors capacity at abstract thought every bit as much as I know about Thomas's

Why so? I'm not yet familiar with her thinking...
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:04 am
@snood,
Quote:
The constitution is supposed to be a living document; the SCOTUS exists to interpret it. Scalia and Thomas are blights.


The SCOTUS is supposed to interpret the constitution, according to precedent, new information, and their own opinions and legal expertise.
But yet you attack Scalia and Thomas for doing just that.

Is it because they are conservative, or because you have a better education, or because you just dont like them being on the bench?
parados
 
  5  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:07 am
@mysteryman,
Maybe it's because they often rule using only 1 of the 4 criteria you listed.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:16 am
@parados,
That may be true, I dont pay attention.
My point is that no matter how they rule, if they dont rule the way you want them to, they are completely wrong all the time.

However, if they rule the way you want them to, then they are legal scholars doing exactly what they should do.
It all depends on how they rule on a case.

BTW, the "you" in my statement was not aimed at you, it was a generic term and not specific to you.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:18 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
The constitution is supposed to be a living document; the SCOTUS exists to interpret it. Scalia and Thomas are blights.


The SCOTUS is supposed to interpret the constitution, according to precedent, new information, and their own opinions and legal expertise.
But yet you attack Scalia and Thomas for doing just that.

Is it because they are conservative, or because you have a better education, or because you just dont like them being on the bench?

It's because as "constitutional originalists" they very often suspend considerations of the common good and common sense in favor of outdated notions that were conceived in ignorance, bigotry and elitism. I think Scalia is a borderline crazyman, and Thomas is little more than his lapdog. And I DO pay attention.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:23 am
@mysteryman,
That may well be as evidenced by the far rights response to Roberts.

However some of us look at the reasons for their ruling before declaring them wrong. Often legal decisions can go either way depending on which argument they decide to accept. However when they disregard legal arguments and manufacture something else, one is left to wonder why they ignore 3 of the criteria you listed.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:24 am
@snood,
As "constitutional originalists", they only stick to that when it suits them. They argue that some things can't change even if technology does and then argue the opposite on other things.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:29 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
In practical application, Constitutional absolutism makes about as much sense as fundamentalist Christianity to me.

Why? The Constitution is the supreme law of the land because you, the people, have enacted it through your elected representatives. If an early Supreme-Court decision made a mistake in interpreting the constitution, it remains a mistake no matter how many generations you keep perpetuating it through the policy of Stare Decisis. The opposite of what you say is true: Stare-Decisis absolutism makes about as much sense as the Catholic Church's doctrine of papal infallibility. Indeed, it makes exactly as much sense.

Snood wrote:
The constitution is supposed to be a living document; the SCOTUS exists to interpret it. Scalia and Thomas are blights.

The constitution derives its legitimacy from you, the people. It's a living constitution because (a repeatedly-affirmed supermajority of) the people can change it by amendment. That's how the US constitution is very different from the Bible, and how the viewpoint you call "constitutional absolutism" is very different from fundamentalist Christianity.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:29 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

As "constitutional originalists", they only stick to that when it suits them. They argue that some things can't change even if technology does and then argue the opposite on other things.


Yeah, right? But that's the label they hide behind...
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 09:30 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

snood wrote:
In practical application, Constitutional absolutism makes about as much sense as fundamentalist Christianity to me.

Why? The Constitution is the supreme law of the land because you, the people, have enacted it through your elected representatives. If an early Supreme-Court decision includes a mistake in interpreting the constitution, it will still be a mistake no matter how many generations you keep perpetuating it through the policy of Stare Decisis. The opposite of what you say is true: Stare-Decisis absolutism makes about as much sense as the Catholic Church's doctrine of papal infallibility. Indeed, it makes exactly as much sense.

Snood wrote:
The constitution is supposed to be a living document; the SCOTUS exists to interpret it. Scalia and Thomas are blights.

The constitution derives its legitimacy from you, the people. It's a living constitution because (a repeatedly-affirmed supermajority of) the people can change it by amendment. That's how the US constitution is very different from the Bible, and how the viewpoint you call "constitutional absolutism" is very different from fundamentalist Christianity.


Good points, Thomas. Chewing on it....
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 10:34 am
@Thomas,
I said:
Quote:
In practical application, Constitutional absolutism makes about as much sense as fundamentalist Christianity to me.


Thomas wrote:
Quote:
Why? The Constitution is the supreme law of the land because you, the people, have enacted it through your elected representatives. If an early Supreme-Court decision includes a mistake in interpreting the constitution, it will still be a mistake no matter how many generations you keep perpetuating it through the policy of Stare Decisis.

The opposite of what you say is true: Stare-Decisis absolutism makes about as much sense as the Catholic Church's doctrine of papal infallibility. Indeed, it makes exactly as much sense.


You seem to be saying here that the concept of precedent in constitutional law is somehow definitively antithetical to constitutional absolutism. I don’t see how that can be true, since in some cases (in my opinion) bad law gets passed along both by the adherence to legal precedent and through interpretations that are skewed by perverse adherence to absolutism.

I say that constitutional absolutists are wrong in the same kinds of ways that dogmatic religionists are when they try to rigidly apply square rules to round world holes.

And I think I disagree with your take on how much real impact “we the people” can have in resisting the destructive power of an activist SCOTUS (and I understand that “judicial activism” very much depends on whether or not the court rules in ways one likes).

Maybe it’s your perspective as an outsider (as I understand it, you’re not from here) that allows you a slight advantage in objectivity. I speak as one who has lived amongst the ruin that resulted from Bush v. Gore, not one who read about it in the news.

Snood wrote:
Quote:
The constitution is supposed to be a living document; the SCOTUS exists to interpret it. Scalia and Thomas are blights.


Thomas wrote:
Quote:
The constitution derives its legitimacy from you, the people.


Again, obviously true, but perhaps mixed with an enviable bit of rose-colored perspective.

Quote:
It's a living constitution because (a repeatedly-affirmed supermajority of) the people can change it by amendment.


And for the right reasons, US strategic satellites can be retasked to other targets. That’t about the level of difficulty of getting constitutional amendments enacted. Not that we shouldn’t try and not that we won’t when the times demand it; just that you refer to it as casually as running for county commisioner.

Quote:
That's how the US constitution is very different from the Bible, and how the viewpoint you call "constitutional absolutism" is very different from fundamentalist Christianity.


I’ll stipulate that there are definite differences if you will stipulate that there are similarities.
 

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