An actual atheist discussion

I understand that an expression like "knowing in one's heart" can, and will be seen as ridiculous by somebody who hasn't experienced this himself/herself. I can only answer for myself, but one of the reasons that I have no doubts about myself not being delusional is that this insight has a higher sense of reality in it. It's like comparing the wake state to a dream. It's totally unlike anything I had previously experienced. In a sense it's like waking up from life, realising one was only dreaming. I would like to call it a spiritual awakening. At that moment the belief is elevated into reality, and comes alive! To me God is now ultimate reality, and many things which I used to perceive as real, I now often perceive as hazy and insubstantial, or as something almost dreamlike.

I realise of course that you still will think I'm delusional, and I can live with that. But know that I'm not lying, for lying is contrary to everything I believe in. God is Truth itself!

Derevon Did you come upon this spiritual awakening with the help of an evangelical minister or healer, or did it just come over you?

Frank Apisa wrote:

Apparently, since you have expressed what amount to scorn for my position of being skeptical, you feel that those of us who are agnostics or atheists should simply take your word for the fact that you are, in a sense, communicating with God -- that it is unreasonable for us to be skeptical about such a thing.

I don't scorn atheists/agnostics.

Anyway, I'd be a fool if I believed anyone who hasn't experienced this himself/herself would take my word for this alone. My hope is that other people with similar experiences will share these as well, and that maybe one day someone will realise that this is not about desperate people, who in an effort to find meaning to their lives, manage to delude themselves about virtually anything.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm not sure how others involved in this thread feel, but I cannot imagine many of them think it reasonable that God communicates information to you personally, Derevon -- and that you can be certain you are not simply deluding yourself about that being the case.

Well Frank, if god can communicate directly with GW, I don't know why not with Derevon. You are not insinuating that GW is delusional are you?

Let me try this again -- and I will do it slowly; please open your mind and at least attempt to deal with what I am saying, not what you want me to be saying.

Not only do I not state (or "believe") that it is not possible to know if a God exists -- I have actually argued with a great deal of passion against people who assert that to be so.

Got that?

My guess is that I have discussed this issue in several dozens of threads -- and I am VERY adamant on the issue. Anyone who claims that "it is impossible to know if God exists" -- is making, in my opinion, an extremely wrong-headed assertion.

If there is a God -- for absolutely certain, that God, if It chose to do so, could make Its existence KNOWN unambiguously -- without any doubt whatsoever.

Got that?

Derevon wrote:

I understand that an expression like "knowing in one's heart" can, and will be seen as ridiculous by somebody who hasn't experienced this himself/herself. I can only answer for myself, but one of the reasons that I have no doubts about myself not being delusional is that this insight has a higher sense of reality in it. It's like comparing the wake state to a dream. It's totally unlike anything I had previously experienced. In a sense it's like waking up from life, realising one was only dreaming. I would like to call it a spiritual awakening. At that moment the belief is elevated into reality, and comes alive! To me God is now ultimate reality, and many things which I used to perceive as real, I now often perceive as hazy and insubstantial, or as something almost dreamlike.

I realise of course that you still will think I'm delusional, and I can live with that. But know that I'm not lying, for lying is contrary to everything I believe in. God is Truth itself!

Amen 2 that. It's also worth it to mention that we are only 3% conscious - the other 97% is obviously sub-conscious and we can see results of how powerful our subconscious is by looking at our own dreams. Why is it that our dreams 'seem' so real to the point that we actually "think" at the time that it is reality - of course when you wake up here you are in reality....... It's also interesting that the Bible tells us to "renew" our mind and follow Jesus's/'awakened'individual footsteps- we should really give thought to what this means in literal every day life. It makes sense in the heart but even if you just think about it logically you would probably come to the same conclusion. Derevon- keep up the good work and faith-you know in your heart and that is what is right

Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

~Kristin

mesquite wrote:

Derevon Did you come upon this spiritual awakening with the help of an evangelical minister or healer, or did it just come over you?

No, there is no single human involved other than myself. It happened after I decided to really try to know God's will by reading about Jesus' life and teachings.

The greatest value of Frank's agnosticism is that we will never find him or any agnostic killing theists and atheists for ideological reasons.

The greatest value of Frank's agnosticism is that we will never find him or any agnostic killing theists and atheists for ideological reasons. Whereas, in principle at least, theists and activist-atheists MAY be so capable. My only reservation is that, since, as Frank asserts, there is no way of knowing whether there is or is not a God--that either conclusion is mere guesswork--he has to agree that the existence of a god is JUST AS LIKELY AS the non-existence of a god. I find the former view to be meaningless and the latter (a form of passive-atheism) to be a simple denial of that meaningless claim.

It's also worth it to mention that we are only 3% conscious - the other 97% is obviously sub-conscious and we can see results of how powerful our subconscious is by looking at our own dreams.

Usually people say 10%. Anyway, it is not true. We use most of our brain, and there are no parts that remain "unused."

I find it the height of amusement that in other threads which predate this one, those with religious scruples objected to agnostics and atheists showing up to put in their two cents worth in religious threads, given that this thread has attracted those of religious conviction.