lolli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:18 am
I'm an atheist . . . no wait, it sounds more cool to be pagan. Well, I always did want to be a theist, but then again why not convert to Catholicism. Yeah, why don't I try Buddhism, or then again I can become Muslim . . . or hey, why not become a Jew!!!!!

I fear I've entered into an alien forum. I am not an atheist, or any of the other above. Yes, I'm the narrow-minded, nieve, weird, unethical, dogmatic, bible-pounding christian type. I know none of you could of said it better! But please, go ahead and try. Just like most of you I've had my share of other people's religion and beliefs (including my own) shoved down my throat. I'm just as tired of it as you. I know that through my (here it comes) faith I have found a reason to live. My God loves me in a way that I fear few people are loved by their god's ( and no, there's nothing perverted about that). I love Him, because He first loved me. Nothing about this faith has somehow made my life a big cherry popsicle, or lessened the cynicism I tend to collect . . . but it is not because Jesus wants it to. I truly hope that all of you find a faith, oh dear, that awful word, that gives you hope and a peace about this awful, painful life we live. Along with all of those mentioned above, please remember this option. GRACE!
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 04:05 am
An Ancient Spelling Error
I think when they spelled God, they meant to spell "good" - and if they had spelled it right in the beginning there would be a lot less fighting.

Don't harm anyone intentionally and you'll be alright.

I grew up in a non-religious household but I never knew another family who was any happier than we were. I think it's because we always looked for the good in others and that, in turn, made them want to be good to us.

I used to debate with people about religion all the time when I was in university - now I'm just happy I've got it figured out for myself. We're all just recycled molecules/energy that happened to get together for 50-80 years. At the end of it we break down and get recycled again. Like a tree that dies in the forest and then contributes to the growth of the trees that are still alive.

I can live with that.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 04:23 am
mark
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 04:26 am
lolli & Jer- Welcome to A2K! Very Happy

I think that whatever you believe, the important thing is that it enriches your life. To me, one of the vital things of life is to respect the right of a person to believe what he wants, even though I might not respect the beliefs themselves.

Jer- I like your tree analogy, which seems to resonate within me.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 04:47 am
Thank you for the welcome
Phoenix,

Thanks for the welcome.

I'm happy the tree example resonates with you, as I've never used it before. It was a "mini-version" of the explanation I would give in person - particularly after a few beer.

Quote:
To me, one of the vital things of life is to respect the right of a person to believe what he wants, even though I might not respect the beliefs themselves.


Life is rich - just living it is enriching. I also respect the right for a person to believe in whatever they choose, so long as their faith doesn't infringe on my being.

Cheers.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 04:59 am
Quote:
It was a "mini-version" of the explanation I would give in person - particularly after a few beer.


Jer- "In vino veritas"! Laughing
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 05:48 am
Jer
I like your way of thinking. Seems very sane to me.
lolli
You seem to be a very together person and I can overlook our differing opinions re religion as I welcome you and jer to the forums.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 06:05 am
I also like the the tree analogy.


Just an aside:
I learned a new word the other day akin to "in vino veritas"
- potvaliant-
means having courage when under the influence-
- sometimes I feel a bit more valiant when I am potted.

back to it:

I like Setanta's stuff but this:
Quote:
I considered it intellectually dishonest to avow disbelief for the unproven, the unprovable and the simply absurd in other arenas, but to place theism in some sort of special category requiring the suspension of disbelief.

I had to read that four or five times to extricate the dis-es and un-s, and I can't figure out how to avow disbelief and suspend disbelief, but then I haven't had any coffee yet. Cool

My history to come later. Don't hold your breath.

Wait! I read it again and now I've got it!! Cool Laughing

Joe
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 08:17 am
Joe Nation wrote:
I also like the the tree analogy.


Just an aside:
I learned a new word the other day akin to "in vino veritas"
- potvaliant-
means having courage when under the influence-
- sometimes I feel a bit more valiant when I am potted.

back to it:

I like Setanta's stuff but this:
Quote:
I considered it intellectually dishonest to avow disbelief for the unproven, the unprovable and the simply absurd in other arenas, but to place theism in some sort of special category requiring the suspension of disbelief.

I had to read that four or five times to extricate the dis-es and un-s, and I can't figure out how to avow disbelief and suspend disbelief, but then I haven't had any coffee yet. Cool

My history to come later. Don't hold your breath.

Wait! I read it again and now I've got it!! Cool Laughing

Joe



Joe

That word "disbelief" really sticks in my craw.

It is a word of disguise -- much like its sister "believe."

People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.

People who "disbelieve" things are disguising the fact that they are "believing" something different from the thing they say they "disbelieve."

In other words, they are guessing in another direction.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 09:36 am
lolli, why are you so angry? Why do feel the need to chastize or ridicule honest answers from people who don't believe what you do?
0 Replies
 
Relative
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 10:26 am
I believe "Theism is personification and concretization of one's beliefs.
Atheism, on the other hand, is just disbelief in reality of existence of such a personification and concretization.

In other words, people who believe in God believe that he exists, and is something outside. Atheists do not make such a claim, but can generally have the same beliefs and morals. They just don't see the necessity that there is something that is really an entity embodying their beliefs.

One good argument against Gods is that there should be one God for each belief system, which means plenty of them and creates jurisdiction/communication/tolerance problems of it's own."

Of course that is if you _believe_ what I do!
0 Replies
 
Relative
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 10:35 am
Quote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.


Frank consider this:

People who believe are honest enough to admit they cannot know. There is no solid base - only belief. Even nihilists must believe they are right.
0 Replies
 
lolli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 11:18 am
Ceili wrote:
lolli, why are you so angry? Why do feel the need to chastize or ridicule honest answers from people who don't believe what you do?


I truly don't mean to come across as an ogre to the more sensitive souls in this forum. If you feel chastised, perhaps it is from a guilty conscience!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 11:39 am
Please remember that this thread is a discussion ABOUT atheism, not a discussion of whether it is right, wrong, or otherwise. Let's try to keep this from becoming an "us v. them" discussion as there are already threads for that.

Thanks!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 12:22 pm
Relative wrote:
Quote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.


Frank consider this:

People who believe are honest enough to admit they cannot know. There is no solid base - only belief. Even nihilists must believe they are right.


No they are not!

In another thread, Lolli has been insisting she "knows" the crap she believes.


You may be more enlightened.


But there are more like her than you.
0 Replies
 
Relative
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 12:29 pm
I must admit that when a believer says she "knows", this is only an emotional expression of what they feel about their beliefs. Even when they say they "know" they are really saying they believe. Always remember that they are believers.

When you say you "know" this is something else - you are either stating a fact anyone can check, or making a logical conclusion. In which case what you are saying is that your belief in logic and/or scientific experiment enables you to "know".

I think I see a definition of "know" embedded in here somewhere, and I think I can say belief is the root to it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 12:35 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Relative wrote:
Quote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.


Frank consider this:

People who believe are honest enough to admit they cannot know. There is no solid base - only belief. Even nihilists must believe they are right.


No they are not!

In another thread, Lolli has been insisting she "knows" the crap she believes.

You may be more enlightened.


But there are more like her than you.


[bolded for reference]

I find your use of "crap" offensive Frank. You are better than that. No one is degrading your beliefs or even doubting them yet here you are calling someone else's beliefs "crap". Is that the level of discourse you want?
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:09 pm
I think what Frank is trying to say is that beliefs in creationism ("crap") and beliefs in g-d (unknown) are just as unfounded as beliefs that there is no g-d (unknown.)

The truth is, in many ways, an atheist is making the same assumptions that a theist is - they are believing one way or the other without evidence.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:21 pm
Relative wrote:
I must admit that when a believer says she "knows", this is only an emotional expression of what they feel about their beliefs. Even when they say they "know" they are really saying they believe. Always remember that they are believers.

When you say you "know" this is something else - you are either stating a fact anyone can check, or making a logical conclusion. In which case what you are saying is that your belief in logic and/or scientific experiment enables you to "know".

I think I see a definition of "know" embedded in here somewhere, and I think I can say belief is the root to it.



I think you are being naive -- but you have to decide about that.

I've had SEVERAL very, very protracted debates with theists who INSIST that they KNOW there is a God -- and KNOW what the god expects of humans -- what pleases and what offends the god.

I've gone to great lengths to be certain of what they were asserting -- and they claim THEY KNOW.


Not sure how you reconcile this with what you are saying here -- but what I have just said is the truth.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:25 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Relative wrote:
Quote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.


Frank consider this:

People who believe are honest enough to admit they cannot know. There is no solid base - only belief. Even nihilists must believe they are right.


No they are not!

In another thread, Lolli has been insisting she "knows" the crap she believes.

You may be more enlightened.


But there are more like her than you.


[bolded for reference]

I find your use of "crap" offensive Frank. You are better than that. No one is degrading your beliefs or even doubting them yet here you are calling someone else's beliefs "crap". Is that the level of discourse you want?



Please, McG. Don't give me lectures.

I do not have "beliefs" in this area -- so there is no chance anyone can "degrade" my "beliefs."

And the kind of crap Lolli has been spewing in these threads deserved to be called what it is.

I do appreciate the fact that you think I am above this kind of thing -- but I say what I say for particular reasons -- none of which are to "degrade" anyone's "beliefs."

I honestly could not care less what anyone "believes."
0 Replies
 
 

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