Relative
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:31 pm
Frank,

I also know a lot of believers, or have known.
The simpler just follow the rules and believe and feel something.
The more intelligent ones actually find their god inside of them and yes I agree - they state they KNOW God is. And this KNOW is a very strong emotional thing.

I've experienced this also : do not argue with believers. Argue with them your way and you'll force them to assert that they KNOW that God IS.

They believe in God because of their soul not their mind. Believing has enormous emotional benefits which can be difficult to achieve without it. And I mean believing not brainwashing, which is most fanatics do.

Of course, there are talented musicians, there are those who play because they love it, and there are those who were forced into piano lessons in childhood. I hate church because of brainwashing that they do.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:36 pm
How is what you are doing any different from what they are doing? You both are spreading your Dogma trying to convince the other side they are wrong.

Each believing only they are correct.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:46 pm
McGentrix wrote:
How is what you are doing any different from what they are doing? You both are spreading your Dogma trying to convince the other side they are wrong.

Each believing only they are correct.


Civilized discussion and debate is a wonderful way to learn about your own views, to test them, and to learn about the views of others. A forum is almost the perfect place to do this. Forums are unfortunately lacking in iced cream and coffee wenches...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:48 pm
Relative wrote:
Frank,

I also know a lot of believers, or have known.
The simpler just follow the rules and believe and feel something.
The more intelligent ones actually find their god inside of them and yes I agree - they state they KNOW God is. And this KNOW is a very strong emotional thing.

I've experienced this also : do not argue with believers. Argue with them your way and you'll force them to assert that they KNOW that God IS.

They believe in God because of their soul not their mind. Believing has enormous emotional benefits which can be difficult to achieve without it. And I mean believing not brainwashing, which is most fanatics do.

Of course, there are talented musicians, there are those who play because they love it, and there are those who were forced into piano lessons in childhood. I hate church because of brainwashing that they do.



The point is, though, that this is a forum set up for the very purpose of discussing and debating those issues.

I'm not sure of where you are going with this, but I have had dozens of people absolutely INSIST that they KNOW there is a GOD -- and that they KNOW what the god expects of humans.

It is perfectly appropriate to discuss that point.
0 Replies
 
Relative
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:50 pm
Of course, but be careful here : for some God is life. Don't call them idiots because of it.

Of course they insist they know - do you want them to say, ok, I don't know i only hope - and be serious believers! I don't believe it!
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:51 pm
Allow me to retort...
Lolli,

This one's for you...

I'm really happy for you that you've found something to believe in that "gives you hope and a peace about this awful, painful life we live."

I just don't see my existence in this world as an "awful, painful life." I see every day as an adventure.

You said:

Quote:
My God loves me in a way that I fear few people are loved by their god's ( and no, there's nothing perverted about that). I love Him, because He first loved me.


I wouldn't worry about whether or not other people are loved by their gods as much as you're loved by yours - it kinda sounds like when I was in elementary school and I'd hear kids arguing about whose mom loved them better. This fight was usually won by the bigger child.

I've known a number of people who ended up in unhappy relationships using your rationale of "because He first loved me." So that might not be the best reason to love someone - or to think that someone loves you more than someone else's someone loves them.

But really what do I know? All I can do is use my senses to feel things and then try to figure out those feelings using my head. It goes a little something like this...

...does it make more sense that "insert event here" happened or that someone is lying to me or grossly exaggerating the extent of said event in an effort to benefit themselves?

Cheers.

Jer
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:52 pm
McGentrix wrote:
How is what you are doing any different from what they are doing? You both are spreading your Dogma trying to convince the other side they are wrong.

Each believing only they are correct.



Well McG, if you honestly cannot see the difference between...

...there is a God...or...there are no gods...

...and...

...I do not know if there is a God or if there are no gods...

...then I cannot think of a way to simplify it so that you can understand it.

The problem, however, is not with the concept, but with you.


By the way...since you identify yourself as an agnostic, I think it is about time you come to the realization that saying "I DO NOT KNOW" is not "dogma" -- and it is asinine to suggest that it is.
0 Replies
 
Relative
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:55 pm
This debate is altogether funny and I'm gonna leave it because:

1. Everybody involved already knows the truth.
2. There are no arguments presented.
3. I've said what I wanted to say. Maybe I'll lurk around to hear some more.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 01:57 pm
You missed my point Frank. You seem anxious when a christian comes here and preaches thier beliefs. You feel the need to immediately jump them and preach how you lack knowledge of god and therefore they must as well and then end up calling their beliefs "crap". It's a game of one-up-manship is all it is. They come and say my god is cool, you say there is no god and a fight ensues. Nothing good comes from the debate. No one walks away saying "Huh! I never thought of that!". people just get mad and the insults start flying.

Thus ends Mcgentrix lecture #1231
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:01 pm
McGentrix wrote:
You missed my point Frank. You seem anxious when a christian comes here and preaches thier beliefs. You feel the need to immediately jump them and preach how you lack knowledge of god and therefore they must as well and then end up calling their beliefs "crap". It's a game of one-up-manship is all it is. They come and say my god is cool, you say there is no god and a fight ensues. Nothing good comes from the debate. No one walks away saying "Huh! I never thought of that!". people just get mad and the insults start flying.

Thus ends Mcgentrix lecture #1231


Insults usually don't further anyone's argument. But there's nothing wrong with holding a position and sticking to it - as long as you respond to questions/ideas other people pose. I think that people do say "huh I never thought of that" to themselves, even if they don't admit it. Change takes time, and if they don't change their beliefs get strengthened from the opposition.
0 Replies
 
lolli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:08 pm
Re: Allow me to retort...
Relative,
Thank you for allowing me to explore my options.

Frank,
I thought you said you were an easy-going guy?

Mcgentrix,
What's essentially wrong with thinking you're the only who's right? Being close-minded? Free Speech?

Jer,
What can I say? If that's really you in the picture, you're cute! Anywayz, you're right, life has been an adventure, it has been painful. I think a lot of people's lives are. Hey, I happen to love children, and think it's great that you compared me to one. If only I could be that innocent (and bigger)! You are absolutely right, many people choose to be in bad relationships because they fear they are not lovable enough to be in a good one. I have learned this from watching those I love chopped down in their place. Painful? Perhaps I should rephrase my words, I am able to love Him, because He first loved me. He gave me that choice.
Enjoyed hearing from you!
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:10 pm
lolli, give me a break. I was trying to get you to look at yourself. I could care less what you believe. You're a lot like the rest of the religious people I've left behind. Angry, I would have thought your religion would teach you love and peace. NOT!
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:15 pm
The difference between the argument and the arguers...
Lolli,

Yes that is me in my pic (the pic with the moving pint in it) - thanks Wink

I didn't compare you to a child - I compared your argument to another argument that I had seen in the schoolground as a child. Please don't mistake my criticism of your argument as a criticism of you.

Thank you, drive-thru.

Jer
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:33 pm
When we were young children, unitl about age 7, we were buddhists. When we were sent to concentration camp during WWII, our mother changed her religion to seventh day adventist, because one of our neighbor ladies 'converted' her. Our whole family started going to church on Saturdays. To make a long story short, all my siblings and their children are christians, but I'm an atheist. My wife is buddhist, and our children have no religious affiliation - that I'm aware of. My wife and I are going on a buddhist pilgrimage to Japan on March 25 for 12 days. We will visit 33 temples, some built in the eight century. We're wearing white robes, and walking will be a major part of our pilgrimage.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:48 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
When we were young children, unitl about age 7, we were buddhists. When we were sent to concentration camp during WWII, our mother changed her religion to seventh day adventist, because one of our neighbor ladies 'converted' her. Our whole family started going to church on Saturdays. To make a long story short, all my siblings and their children are christians, but I'm an atheist. My wife is buddhist, and our children have no religious affiliation - that I'm aware of. My wife and I are going on a buddhist pilgrimage to Japan on March 25 for 12 days. We will visit 33 temples, some built in the eight century. We're wearing white robes, and walking will be a major part of our pilgrimage.


I am so sorry, cicerone! Now I can understand why you are sensitive about issues of cultural heritage. Sending Japanese (and people who might, vaguely look japanese) Americans into camps during/after WWII was one of the most stupid and inhumane things this country has ever done. You sound like you've had a very interesting life. Don't white robes mean someone has died?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 02:52 pm
I am envious of your journey c.i.

It should be wonderful!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 03:20 pm
PS, I think you're right, but it has more to do with the Chinese culture. I"m not sure about this, but I think the people of Japan uses black and white to signify a death.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 03:30 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I am envious of your journey c.i.

It should be wonderful!
I completely agree!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 03:44 pm
Yes, we're looking forward to this trip. Many of the temples are very old national treasures, and often built by the sponsorship of shoguns. Lot'sa history to read up on, because some were built on the basis of buddhist priests from India and China (and maybe, Korea). With our group leader being a buddhist priest should be a plus. Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 03:54 pm
McGentrix wrote:
You missed my point Frank. You seem anxious when a christian comes here and preaches thier beliefs. You feel the need to immediately jump them and preach how you lack knowledge of god and therefore they must as well and then end up calling their beliefs "crap". It's a game of one-up-manship is all it is. They come and say my god is cool, you say there is no god and a fight ensues. Nothing good comes from the debate. No one walks away saying "Huh! I never thought of that!". people just get mad and the insults start flying.

Thus ends Mcgentrix lecture #1231



I have never said there is no god.


And I honestly think you ought reserve your lectures for yourself.

But....if you want to entertain -- I'm here to be entertained.
0 Replies
 
 

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