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Should the General Education Diploma (GED) be eliminated?

 
 
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 08:35 am
An article in my paper today argues for the elimination of GED programs.

According to the item, kids that are 17 years old who don't have nearly enough credits to graduate are steered towards the GED programs. The argument for eliminating these programs say that the availability of the GED induces kids to drop out of school and that if they do they fare no better than kids who simply drop out.

One expert cited by the article is James Heckman, Nobel Prize-winning economist at the U of Chicago. Heckman says "The same traits that lead them to drop out of school also lead them to leave from jobs early, to divorce more frequently, and to fail in the military...... Districts should make it much harder for students to forgo high school and pick the easier GED route."

I'm not entirely convinced that it is some kind of character flaw that leads kids to drop out of school and I'm not sure that eliminating the one incentive to get some kind of credential is a good idea. But clearly there is a problem.

What do you think would happen if the GED was eliminated?

Do you think more kids would stay in school? How might that be accomplished? Should struggling students be allowed to stay in high school on a part time basis until they earn enough credits?

Would eliminating the GED just lead to more kids dropping out and being done with it?

Should GED programs truly be equivalent to a high school diploma? Should the test be harder -- hard enough to show that the person has the same basic knowledge as the lower achieving high school graduate?'

What do you think?


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Type: Question • Score: 11 • Views: 13,737 • Replies: 129

 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 08:48 am
Kids are going to be kids, in spite of Heckman's rigidity. Some are going to make some bad decisions (just like adults, for that matter). There should be some way to get back on track when you realize you made the bad decision. Keep the GED. Heckman seems willing to throw them to the wolves at 15 if they make one mistake.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 08:51 am
It does sound to me as though this joker Heckman is just issuing an ex cathedra statement which lumps all those who use the GED into a single category, excluding any other possible reason. Anecdotally, i've know several people who played the wild child in high school, but who went back for a GED when they had settled down. One went on to community college, and entered a university degree program. Another was encouraged by her employer, then entered a community college in a CIA approved culinary training program and became a highly respected chef.

This joker is just playing the sage, and i suspect is working without a statistical net. I think it would be a really bad idea which would eliminate a very valuable resource for young people.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 09:07 am
I agree with both of you. I think this makes clear the danger when economists (and anyone other than educators) start dipping their toes into education policy.

But it did let my mind wander to what might be the alternative....

Allowing kids to stay in high school until they finish. Even if they take only a couple of classes per semester. We could easily end up with 20 year olds in high school. From an economic standpoint that doesn't make much sense to me.

Or we could just use the SAT as a GED type thing. If you can score above a certain point of the SAT then you would automatically be granted a diploma. This is assuming that the SAT is unbiased towards middle income white kids, which many people think is true.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 09:22 am
@boomerang,
The GED has been a godsend for many. There are a lot of people who for a number of reasons are not able to finish high school and thus gain their diploma. For some it is a matter of things happening at home (sick parent who needs help tending younger siblings), for some the inability to assimilate into regular school life (there can be many reasons, including bullying from others and learning handicaps). In some places, the standards for the high school diploma is far beyond what a GED requires. In some places, taking a foreign language course is part of the requirement to gain a diploma, science and math courses which are at a level higher than a GED would currently ask for.

With a GED, the person is better equipped at facing life, getting a job and perhaps even then eyeing a college education or a trade school education (some form of advanced education).

I grew up knowing people who decide on a GED for many reasons. The same happened with students I had the challenge of teaching. There are young people who have ADD and others with dyslexia and some with both. They aren't lacking the intelligence needed for the courses taught in high school; however, they are not able to mesh in with regular school formats. A GED gives them the opportunity to move forward.

From Walter who was unable to learn under normal educational restrictions, to Renee who had to leave school because of circumstances at home, there have been examples of people who became successful and even obtained degrees from colleges because they were able to take the GED route.
I'd not want to think of this form of opportunity being eliminated.


DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 09:52 am
@boomerang,
What a crappy argument.

"The argument for eliminating these programs say that the availability of the GED induces kids to drop out of school and that if they do they fare no better than kids who simply drop out."

What that sentence is missing is "on average." The problem, of course, is that not every situation is the average situation.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:09 am
@Sturgis,
Quote:
With a GED, the person is better equipped at facing life, getting a job and perhaps even then eyeing a college education or a trade school education (some form of advanced education).

I agree.

And I don't think the existence of GED programs encourages students to drop out of high school. As you point out, there are many reasons someone might be unable to complete their schooling with a regular diploma. The ability to gain a GED can keep them from being trapped in a dead end in terms of future education or job training or employment.

Even people in jails and prisons can earn a GED, which might help in their rehabilitation and reduce the probability of their re-offending. It provides a stepping stone toward becoming a more productive and self supporting citizen.

The economist cited in the OP is wrong to equate a GED with failure, and to characterize the recipient of such a diploma as someone who will chronically fail in other endeavors. A GED is a mark of accomplishment and it should be regarded as such. Additionally, it provides an important social safety net which, I feel, would be unwise to remove. Retaining the GED expands the possibilities available to individuals, removing it as an option would only diminish those possibilities.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:14 am
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_20/b4178032078271.htm

Quote:
Heckman is an empiricist. He also has a cause: He believes society invests in education too late for it to make much difference. "To solve later skill deficits, we need to invest in closing early skill deficits," says Heckman. "Waiting to address these issues makes the remedy much more costly—or impossible." Countless studies show that increased spending on early childhood education would affect both cognition and character at its most malleable, lowering dropout and juvenile delinquency rates by building "soft skills" such as discipline, self-esteem, motivation, collegiality and persistence.

Heckman's work shows that GED recipients do about as well as regular high school grads on academic tests. To that extent, the program works. But his analysis also demonstrates that those "soft skills" are what American education misses amid the growing obsession to reward cognitive learning. GED recipients who fail do so not because of their inability to do math but because of non-cognitive abilities.

ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:16 am
@ehBeth,
one of Heckman's more recent studies

http://www.nber.org/papers/w16064
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:16 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
I think this makes clear the danger when economists (and anyone other than educators) start dipping their toes into education policy.


http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/040108/heckman.shtml

Quote:
Heckman, the Henry Schultz Distinguished Service Professor in Economics and one of the world’s leading figures in the study of human capital policy, has found that programs that encourage non-cognitive skills effectively promote long-term success for participants.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:35 am
@ehBeth,
I can agree with his cause but that doesn't change his argument that the GED should be eliminated. Here's the full bit about him in today's paper:
Quote:

By allowing or inducing students to settle for the lesser credential rather than tough it out and earn 24 high school credits and a diploma, educators set up young people for lesser lives, according to James Heckman, a Nobel Prize-winning economist at the University of Chicago.

Heckman, in books and scholarly papers about the GED, decries the growth of GED programs because students who get them fare so poorly in life.

Heckman found that "obtaining a GED does not increase the wages of dropouts. ... The same traits that lead them to drop out of school also lead them to leave from jobs early, to divorce more frequently, and to fail in the military."

He worries that adults who should know better lure students down that path. "The GED creates problems," he wrote. "It induces students to drop out of school and lose the benefits of a high school (diploma)." Districts should make it much harder for students to forgo high school and pick the easier GED route, he argued.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:38 am
@boomerang,
His research seems to support his conclusions.

When I looked up what the GED was originally set up for, I really started to "get" his position.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:42 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Even people in jails and prisons can earn a GED, which might help in their rehabilitation and reduce the probability of their re-offending. It provides a stepping stone toward becoming a more productive and self supporting citizen.



Quote:
An Empirical Test of the Heckman and Rubinstein GED Mixed-Signal: Evidence from Prison


http://ideas.repec.org/p/gms/wpaper/1007.html

(download of the study at the link)

Quote:
Abstract

Economists have begun to embrace the notion, already accepted by the market, that GEDs and High School Diplomas signal similar cognitive abilities, but different non-cognitive abilities. To better understand this phenomenon and its implications, this paper presents a study of an education environment, prison, which provides natural controls for non-cognitive abilities. The study reveals similarities in decisions between the two types of agents that are surprising in light of decisions made in standard educational environments. The results support the mixed-signal theory and furthermore suggest that stricter enforcement of discipline and other non-cognitive attributes may help to reduce dropout rates in non-prison educational facilities.


(they apparently didn't get the results they expected when they started this study)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:54 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
What do you think?

If the premise of the anti-GED case is true --- if the GED leaves students no better off than dropping out that demolishes the economic case for it ("get at least the GED, or you won't get a decent job"). On the narrow labor-economic view that Heckman comes from, that's enough to abolish the GED.

But the GED might be worth abolishing even on the broader view that education is a value in itself, not just a means to getting a job. On this view, the merits of abolishing the GED would depend on what students would do instead. Would they drop out, or would they finish high school? If the tendency is that they stay on for the high school diploma, I would see no reason, broad or narrow, to keep the GED. If the tendency is that they drop out, we should keep it. What evidence, if any, do we have on this?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 11:02 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
I can agree with his cause but that doesn't change his argument that the GED should be eliminated.

And why do you think that's the wrong conclusion, given his empirical findings?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 11:05 am
an interesting (and long) interview with Heckman

http://www.childrenofthecode.org/interviews/heckman.htm

I found the ability and behaviour section of the interview particularly thought-provoking


(the Children of the Code group has its own particular bias - reading shame - so you definitely have to adjust for that through the interview)
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 11:07 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced that it is some kind of character flaw that leads kids to drop out of school


read more of Heckman's work (or the interview I just linked to) gives a better sense of what he's about than a small bit in a paper
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 11:14 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
On this view, the merits of abolishing the GED would depend on what students would do instead. Would they drop out, or would they finish high school?


http://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/journals/article/index.xml?journalid=30&articleid=49&sectionid=173

Quote:
Furthermore, although the GED program may be beneficial to some dropouts, it may have unintended consequences. Several studies, for example, find that the GED program may induce some students to drop out.7
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 12:07 pm
@ehBeth,
top of page 4 of this pdf

http://www.soc.umn.edu/~warre046/Halpern-Manners%20&%20Warren%20GED.pdf


let's get those low-performers out of our school, so their results don't drag us down!
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 12:36 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Non-traditional pathways may also be appealing from the school’s perspective.
Teachers and school administrators typically face strong external
pressure to raise pass rates on HSEEs (and other state-mandated tests). In
the era of No Child Left Behind, salaries, job security, and even local control
of schools can depend, in part, on the results. As others have suggested, the
nature of this incentive structure may prompt some schools to “push out”
low-performing students whose scores are unlikely to exceed the required
threshold (Heilig and Darling-Hammond 2008), thereby removing them from
the denominator of the exam-passing rate.3 In some cases, these difficult-toeducate
students may be channeled toward alternative testing programs like
the GED—a practice that often enables schools to count them as“transfers”
rather high school dropouts


That problem could be fixed by eliminating the tests.

Why scrap the GED program to fix an entirely different mistake?

(In related news.... http://eagnews.org/el-paso-superintendent-admits-doctoring-test-scores/)
 

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