Should the General Education Diploma (GED) be eliminated?

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

I think you've reversed Heckman's position.

What have I reversed? His position on what the facts are? Or his position on approving or disapproving of the facts?

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@boomerang,

Quote:

My problem is that I'm not convinced that eliminating the GED is a good idea...

I haven't read Heckman's studies, or any other studies that probably contradict his, but studies often lack a human element.

I don't think Heckman is saying GEDs should be eliminated. But he does feel that many of those who get GEDs need to be better prepared in non-cognitive areas so that they can acquire the personality qualities more likely to help them succeed in further educational endeavors, employment, military service, etc.

And he does believe that interventions should begin at the pre-school level, when the foundations for both cognitive and non-cognitive learning are developing, to counteract the lack of adequate familial support most often found in the disadvantaged groups who wind up dropping out of school in their teens. He feels that long-term longitudinal studies demonstrate the effectiveness of these programs, although Head Start is not one of those he refers to. So, I think he'd put more money and effort into pre-school programs as a way of eliminating the later need for the GED, and as a way of insuring that more of these students could successfully complete high school.

If you read the interview in the link ehbeth posted, I think you'll find he does consider the human element.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

You're one of the people the program was actually meant for. It was meant for veterans - who, for the most part, already had the non-cognitive skills missing for the majority of people now taking advantage of the program.

We were a family of twelve, with no father. I had to quit school to work. Four years later, while in the Navy, I got one. Next day, I took a college level GED test and gained a two years of college GED that was only good so long as I stayed in the service.

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@Thomas,

That opinion was based on the report in my newspaper that I did read.

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@firefly,

Quote:

But he does feel that many of those who get GEDs need to be better prepared in non-cognitive areas so that they can acquire the personality qualities more likely to help them succeed in further educational endeavors, employment, military service, etc.

But he does say

Quote:

"The GED creates problems," he wrote. "It induces students to drop out of school and lose the benefits of a high school (diploma)." Districts should make it much harder for students to forgo high school and pick the easier GED route, he argued.

Which sounds like he believes the GED should be eliminated, or at least a rare option. His arguments were used in support of GED elimination in an article that included

Quote:

Brian Reeder, assistant superintendent of Oregon schools, said the state should consider discontinuing funding GED prep programs as an alternative for high school students. High school instruction is supposed to help students earn diplomas, he said.

Full article: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/06/portland_directs_students_to_g.html

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I really didn't intend for this discussion to be a dissection of Heckman's research, as interesting as it is. I hope other people will join in the topic and offer their insights.

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@boomerang,

It's hard to discuss it without a reasonable understanding of the research.

It becomes an exchange of anecdotally-based opinions. Insights = anecdotes in most cases.

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@ehBeth,

That's okay though, since that's what a discussion is. For me, one thing leads to another. I like the ebb and flow. I don't want anyone to think they have to wade through the research of any one individual to participate so I was trying to expand the topic a bit.

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I'm obviously going to have to give this fresh eyes tomorrow. I went to the interview link and found the conversation pretty random and disjointed and leading. Heckerman seemed to ask more questions than he answered.

I recall running across some "Children of the Code" videos a couple of years ago. While I agreed with some of their positions I came away with a weird Indigo Children and Scientology vibe that left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe that's what is putting me off.

Fresh eyes tomorrow....

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

That's okay though, since that's what a discussion is. For me, one thing leads to another. I like the ebb and flow.

A discussion doesn't have to be just banter, though. It can also be a serious effort to figure out the truth about something. And for laypeople like us, reading up on one of the leading researcher in the discussed field is a useful first step in figuring it out.

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@Thomas,

I agree.

But I think it's wrong to say that This Guy is the only one who has anything to say about it.

Only looking at one set of research can lead you down some bad hallways.

I think people's own experience and ideas matter. I think edgar has added a very important element to this thread that isn't based on some research.

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@boomerang,

I think it's an issue in Oregon because that state has the Oregon Option Program for In School Youth. That allows students, ages 16 and 17, who are still in school to prepare for and take GED subtests. And, if the student obtains the GED while in school they are counted as "completers" and not as dropouts.
http://www.ode.state.or.us/teachlearn/certificates/gedinschool/gedqanda.pdf
A state that doesn't have these in-school GED programs (only 12 states have them) isn't using resources for these purposes and it isn't deflecting students into such programs, so the issues and concerns wouldn't be the same.

And the in-school GED programs are essentially drop-out prevention attempts, but they may not be the best way to prevent drop-outs or even the best way to provide still attending students with either a meaningful educational experience or a credential that will translate into better employment potential.

That's very different than a GED which is offered as a "second-chance" for an adult who dropped out of school when younger and who is now unable to obtain a regular high school diploma. The "second-chance" GED, and the remedial work some might need to do to prepare for the exam, might well provide a stepping stone to enhanced higher education or job earning possibilities.

Adult Education Programs, geared toward helping adults obtain a regular high school diploma, or Alternative Schools, or initiatives like the YABC program or transfer schools program offered in NYC, might be better options than simply taking GED exams, and would also offer more supportive services to those who participate, but they are also costly for municipalities and not available in all areas. But, if they can enable more adult drop-outs to obtain regular high school diplomas, they would be cost effective worthwhile investments.

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@edgarblythe,

I got mine within a year of enlisting in the Army. At that time, if I hadn't been in the service, I would have had to wait till age twenty-one like everyone else.

Was it useful? Well, I couldn't have gotten into college with out it.

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@roger,

It was so long ago, I had forgotten. I used it to enroll in Long Beach City College.

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

Only looking at one set of research can lead you down some bad hallways.

that's one of the reasons I posted the results from other researchers

anecdotal evidence is interesting, but I don't think policy decisions should be based on it

in the case of edgarb - he is part of the original, true, target group

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Whatever the research may say, and regardless of how this joker rants about non-cognitive education, the GED is still a crucial opportunity for people. If this joker wants to get down to the brass tacks of how to remedy the lacuna in early childhood education, that would be a fine thing. In the meantime, employers want to know that prospective employees have a minimal literacy, and some basic arithmetic. High school diplomas or an equivalence such as the GED supply that information, at least insofar as employers are concerned. Problems are not solved by thowing people to the wolves while the brainiacs flounder around working on the jargon and theory. I am contemptuous of someone like this man who despite his credentials apparently doesn't live in the real world in which others have a hard row to hoe.

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I made it through the Business Week article and the first linked research paper this morning and I'm still not convinced that dropping the GED (or making it harder to get is a good idea.

The BW article says:

Quote:

Heckman's work shows that GED recipients do about as well as regular high school grads on academic tests. To that extent, the program works. But his analysis also demonstrates that those "soft skills" are what American education misses amid the growing obsession to reward cognitive learning. GED recipients who fail do so not because of their inability to do math but because of non-cognitive abilities.

So if the "soft skills" aren't being taught in the American education system, those skills must be being taught at home. How is changing anything about the GED going to change this?

I couldn't pull quotes from the research paper so any quoting mistakes will be mine, not the author's.

I thought the statistic of the GED being designed so that only 60% of "diploma bound students" could pass it was very interesting. I guess that means that 40% of people with diplomas aren't as smart as the GED test takers.

He points out that the average person spends 100 hours studying to get a good score on the GED and that students spend over 1,000 hours in class to get a diploma (they don't mention time spent on outside studying).

It seems to me that if someone can accomplish something in 100 hours, mostly on their own, instead of 1,000 hours with lots of help that it says something good about the GED test taker.

When you think about the space and resources that kid isn't using up it makes sense that we would steer them towards the GED. I'm wondering why it isn't considered more like a CLEP test.

Quote:

"(studies) demonstrate the GED induces some would be HS graduates into dropping out, but we do not know which individuals drop out or how successful they would have become if they'd stayed in school.

So then what's the harm of offering this option? That they will end up making less money? Maybe what we need is for employers to reevaluate their reaction to GED v. HS diplomas.

Quote:

GED testing rates increase when HS exit exams are introduced....

Maybe we need to get rid of HS exit exams if we want to reduce the number of kids getting a GED.

I thought this was interesting:

Quote:

In the NLSY97, the parents of GED recipients are more educated than the parents of high school graduates, and GEDs are as likely or more likely to come from a broken household than are dropouts.

I'm going to have to think on that one a bit.......

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

So if the "soft skills" aren't being taught in the American education system, those skills must be being taught at home. How is changing anything about the GED going to change this?

Thanks Boss . . . i have been trying to frame that succinctly in my mind and you've done it well.

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@Setanta,

It seems like there is a huge disconnect there, doesn't it?

When you couple that with the better educated/single parent bit it gets really interesting.

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

So if the "soft skills" aren't being taught in the American education system, those skills must be being taught at home. How is changing anything about the GED going to change this?

the problem is that the soft skills are not being taught, or valued, in all homes.

Soft skills are where people are losing jobs - because of attitude and behavioural problems. This was an inadvertent discovery in the early research (starting in the 1970's) and supported by later research (including research designed to disprove it).

People are getting GED's, and a disproportionate number are losing jobs they got (because they had GED's) because they weren't taught the necessary job survival skills at home.

There are still adults for whom the GED is an appropriate option - but it seems it is being used to avoid addressing significant problems in the North American educational systems.

Getting a GED doesn't give people the soft skills many of them need to maintain jobs and to do well in other areas of their lives.

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Should the General Education Diploma (GED) be eliminated?

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