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Fri 15 Jun, 2012 01:05 am
@oristarA,
Quote:Why use "hold off", not "holds off"?
Because hold soft was taken? Or the imperative, ( hold)
@oristarA,
Because it's taken as a plural.
Miami Heat (they) hold off Thunder.....
The same problem is found when referring to public bodies:
Police are concerned....
The Metropolitan Police informs us...
The Army is determined....
and other collective nouns
The team is disgusted. The players are shattered.
I believe the correct verb should be "holds". The team, not 12 individuals, played a game; the team won.
Manchester United has won a record 19th English league title.
Rolls-Royce has unveiled an electric Phantom at the Geneva motor show.
McT is right. Also, many, perhaps most, American teams have plural names:Rams, Jets, Rays, Yankees, Packers, Red Sox (slang spelling of Socks, originally), which naturally take plural verbs, which people are used to using when discussing those teams, and it likely carries over to some of the newer teams, Jazz, Heat, and so on that aren't obviously singular or plural (to complicate things, you can't call someone a Red Sock first baseman, say)
A purist would say that it depends on whether the team is being viewed as a single entity or a collection of individuals.
Miami Heat has won a series of games. (The team playing together as a unit)
Miami Heat are a diverse lot - five Jews, a Puerto Rican and six Mormons! (the team considered as individuals)
@oristarA,
So why was my answer not selected, even though it was the best?
Eh?
@contrex,
Quote:I believe the correct verb should be "holds". The team, not 12 individuals, played a game; the team won.
The Jets holds off the Raiders???
The Broncos holds off the Seahawks???
The Yankees holds off the Red Sox???
I don't think so.
The Heat...is the name of a team. I am gonna disagree unless a grammarian comes and gives good reasons for "holds."
But...
The Birds is coming...was correct.
McT says
Quote: So why was my answer not selected, even though it was the best?
well, you is the bestest in our books.
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The Jets holds off the Raiders???
The Broncos holds off the Seahawks???
The Yankees holds off the Red Sox???
I don't think so.
Those are all plural words and that is sufficient reason for deviating from the "rule" - to do otherwise would look and sound unnatural, as you note.
I found these examples - I didn't make them up - some of them use both the singular and plural forms, in what must have seemed to the writer to be the most natural way.
Manchester United has won a record 19th English league title.
West Ham has never won the league title.
Roberto Mancini says Manchester City has played the most attractive football in England.
Liverpool has already made a splash during the offseason by signing Gylfi Sigurdsson.
Liverpool has played 34 league games so far, sitting in eighth place with 46 points. They have 12 wins, 10 draws and 12 losses.
Rolls-Royce has unveiled an electric Phantom at the Geneva motor show.
Though the team has never won a World Cup, England has traditionally been one of the strong teams in international cricket
The England cricket team has been the dominant force in world cricket over the past two years.
I suspected that maybe I was showing a British English bias in what I searched for but...
Miami Heat has played at the $213 million American Airlines Arena since 2000
The Miami Heat has played five Playoff games here in 2005 and has won them all. It's the longest playoff win streak in Heat history.
The Miami Heat has played 11 games in the post-season. The Boston Celtics have played 13.
It is no secret that this has reflected on how Miami Heat has played as this season is coming to a close. Bosh is nothing close to the most ...
Since the 1999-2000 seasons, the Miami Heat has played at the American Airlines Arena (capacity of 19600)
Quote:The Heat...is the name of a team. I am gonna disagree unless a grammarian comes and gives good reasons for "holds."
Personally, I think it more a question of style than grammar. Language learners often crave "rules" to form a kind of scaffolding for their learning which, upon gaining fluency and appreciating issues such as style, register, etc, they can choose to dismantle or rely on less.
@contrex,
It probably IS more a question of style and a regard for number...and what sounds correct to the ear.
The Yankees were successful in the playoffs.
New York was successful in the playoffs.
The Raiders were outstanding in that game.
Oakland was outstanding in that game.
The Broncos were brilliant in their win over San Diego.
Denver was brilliant in its win over San Diego.
@oristarA,
In this case, "hold off" pertains to a group --- "holds off" pertains to an individual -- nothing academic, just feels like it.
Grammar Nazi to the rescue!
I shall now quote from page 35 of
CliffsStudySolver(TM) English Grammar by Jeffrey Coghill and Stacey Magedanz; Wiley Publishing, Inc. (2003).
Quote:Nouns that refer to a specific group of persons or things are called collective nouns ...
Collective nouns are usually singular, except when referring to the individual members of a group. ...
Also, some collective nouns are considered both singular and plural, depending on their use in a sentence. For instance:
Singular: The jury is deliberating.
Individual members: The jury took their seats.
Companies take a singular verb.
Kraft Foods manufactures more than eighty types of cheese.
Musical groups, on the other hand, take a plural verb.
The Police are releasing a new greatest hits CD.
The Wallflowers are playing at the concert hall tonight.
@wmwcjr,
Isn't this great?
The committee took their seats, but
The committee is sitting.
Mc(I bet OristarA is sorry he ever asked, by now)Tag
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:I shall now quote from page 35 of CliffsStudySolver(TM) English Grammar by Jeffrey Coghill and Stacey Magedanz; Wiley Publishing, Inc. (2003).
That's a guide to Yankee English. That's not the only kind.
Quote:Companies take a singular verb.
Kraft Foods manufactures more than eighty types of cheese.
You see, in British English we might very well say:
Kraft Foods manufacture more than eighty types of cheese. And they all taste like crap.
Tesco are recruiting staff in Birmingham for their new store.
I believe the companies: plural/singular thing is a transpondial issue.
@McTag,
McTag wrote:Re: wmwcjr (Post 5015341)
Isn't this great?
The committee took their seats, but
The committee is sitting.
Mc(I bet OristarA is sorry he ever asked, by now)Tag
I once read somewhere that English is one of the most difficult languages for those to learn whose native tongue is another language. I'm sure one of the reasons why is because
there are so many [expletive deleted] exceptions to those [expletive deleted] grammar rules!
@contrex,
I'm not surprised to learn there are differences between Yankee English and British English pertaining to grammar rules. After all, there are spelling differences.
By the way, you just used a word -- namely, "transpondial" -- that's not in my unabridged.
Of course, my unabridged also happens to be a Yankee.
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
So why was my answer not selected, even though it was the best?
Eh?
Contrex said "A purist would say that it depends on whether the team is being viewed as a single entity or a collection of individuals."
This view has come to the point and was comprehensive, a little bit better than that of yours, McTag. That is why I've selected Contrex's as the answer. Yours was excellent though.
@contrex,
Quote:A purist would say that it depends on whether the team is being viewed as a single entity or a collection of individuals.
A 'purist', aka a 'prescriptivist is not someone that anyone would want to rely on for accurate descriptions of language.
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