Financial liability

And, on deaf, I am in the biosphere between deaf and not. The people I don't say 'what?' to are fewer and fewer. So, there we go, older lawyers who liked loud rock...

(an aside, my incipient deafness may be related to my eye thing, I forgot the name already, but let's say Haine's syndrome. I know that isn't it, starts with H though.) Surgeon 2 is thinking of a paper...

She winks, whatever.

Unless the house and the car and EVERYTHING are 100% in E.G.'s name, get out before you get involved with buying a house. Protect yourselves first and foremost.

I have a 'famous' letter I use when quitting - lovely references to the opportunity to learn I was given by working with them, blah blah blah.

While the deaf community is small, it is not that small. It's not that small in Canada that you can't move from an awkward work or volunteer position to a better one. And secondarily - you are not required to stay in the deaf community to work/volunteer. Does lawyerdude only work in the deaf community? Step out and dip back in later, if you're given a hard time (which I don't really think will happen to a career-limiting degree).

Put your resignation "as a volunteer" in writing - emails (tagged for confirmation of delivery) are good for this.


blah blah blah

As I'm sure you'll appreciate, I will now have to focus on preparing my home and family for our move. I have appreciated the opportunity to be involved as a volunteer with this blah blah blah. The challenges of developing new skills and applying previously acquired ones blah blah blah. I look forward to hearing about the success of this venture, and wish you all the best on a personal level as well. blah blah blah.


Illinois is a joint and several liability state. If there are losses, and lawsuits for payment, and if you are found 1% liable - you can be required to pay 100% (I've been learning a lot about Illinois and joint and several liability at work in the last couple of weeks - hey - has JoeChicago been around? maybe PM him?).

Get out before your name is attached to a house.

Just went back and re-read this. I'm liking the 'thanks for the opportunity, but i've got to move' approach more and more. Let them worry about their own liability problems without you.

Yeah... had a good talk with E.G. last night, am feeling slightly more on top of things. What I would really like is to pull in at least one more good-sized sponsor, and do a little one-two. Good news, _____ is sponsoring us for $___! Also, I need to update you on developments in my life...

<sigh>

I really like a lot of the verbiage you used, above, gonna integrate that I think. Thanks.

People can go to prison for such here in Germany - well, on parole (have been the probation officer for one in the 80's :wink: ).

Yeah, I know. It's whacked. I think it's more cluelessness than criminality, but I've been wrong about these kinds of things before...

I certainly agree!

1%.

Just keep in mind that 1% can equal 100%.

ehbeth has made a hell of a lot of sense in this thread, but nowhere as much as in these two sentences. I absolutely, wholeheartedly, totally second that.

About the dilemma of putting your financial future at risk one way or the other:

1) Are you sure you have no viable job options in the hearing world? You seem to be implying it. But judging by your qualifications, and by how much you appear to have your stuff together online, I severely doubt that it will be possible to keep potential employers disinterested in you for a long time. Aren't you just hiding your light under a bushel here? I suspect you are.

2) Does anyone in this thread know long it takes in America to incorporate an organization? In Germany, it's several months, which would be too long, but America is rumored to be dramatically faster in this department. If it can be done in a week or two -- and I have no idea whether it can -- this is the easiest form of protection, and nobody needs to quit. It does involve work, and you, Sozobe, say you don't want that. But it might still be the least bad option for you.

3) Should it prove inevitable to escalate the situation, maybe it helps to escalate it the right way at least? I can see why it would be bad for you to be seen as a quitter, but how about this scenario: In the next meeting, you hit your fist on the table and say: "We need to incorporate NOW! We need at least semi-professional finances, which at the very least includes a credible set of financial statements: Opening balance sheet as of today, statement of projected income over the duration of the project, statement of projected cash flow over the duration of the project, and projected balance sheet at the end of the project. And we need it all YESTERDAY!!!"

Judging by the way you described them, they'll say you've lost your mind, and you will all spend thirty very unpleasant minutes in that meeting. After that, it's at least possible that things will get back on a sustainable track. More likely, they'll end up hating you, just as in the "quitter scenario", but your reputation will be more like: "She's a total control freak who always notoriously insists on following protocol and doing things the right way". This reputation will still hurt your chances with some deaf employers. But on the other hand, it should help your chances with other deaf employers -- and it might be just the employers that are best suited for you.

Disclaimer: My people skills have repeatedly been found inadequate, so you want to treat everything I said here with great skepticism.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

Getting out of there, for sure, just trying to chart the course.

Oh, just saw your post, Thomas. Hee hee!

I think there was some question about whether incorporation would really protect us. I'll have to read back on that.

The deaf community thing is a little more complicated. Yes, I could get a job working with just hearing people, but I don't particularly want to. I like being in an ASL environment. That is also where most of my qualifications are.

But, the complicated part, or perhaps more simplistic part, is that the gossip won't be as refined as "control freak" or "quitter"; it will be more black and white, more "good" or "bad." The reason for that is, if this fails, they will be looking for a scapegoat. I'm not there, (anymore), I can somewhat plausibly be blamed, I will be.

This is possibly inevitable. What I would like is to exit gracefully enough that there will be at least some people who would say, "hey, wait..." when the sozobe gossip starts. :-?

It is possible that I've overlooked something in this thread, but I think all the points about inadequate protection referred to the insurance case. Normally, once you are incorporated, and if nobody but the corporation writes invoices, only the capital _in_ the corporation is available for confiscation. So long as you incorporate before the invoices are written, nobody will bother the owners if the company cannot pay its bills. That's the whole point of incorporating, and it's true except if you, personally, sign a statement saying otherwise.

It is possible that some businesses will be reluctant to deal with the company for exactly this reason. The board members can protect against this case somewhat by putting some money into the corporation once it is incorporated. If everything goes well, you get your money, plus interest, back once the event is over. If something goes wrong, the money you put into the company is lost, but the catastrophic scenarios -- like, house and car gone -- are ruled out. And as an added bonus, this would force the board members to put their money where their mouth is, thereby revealing how much they _really_ believe in this enterprise.

Hmm, this may have been what I was going by:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=566504#566504

I asked whether we are incorporated but didn't get an answer.

Can anyone confirm whether incorporation will solve any potential problems?

Again, though, my preference is to just plain get out and let them figure this stuff out.

One correction to Thomas' post: Payroll taxes are always the liability of the officers and directors of any corporation. The IRS will come after you whether your organization is incorporated or not.

This is indeed the basic, and it suggests the basic solution: Incorporate, don't sign a personal guarantee for any debts, and you're home free.

We can go through the list after the quote if you want. Again, I am not a lawyer, but I think all these points are manageable.

<Ducking in anticipation of ehBeth's "I think? I think?" sledge hammer >

But as long as incorporation isn't the main path you want to pursue, going through the list may not be worth it.

Thanks for the correction, CI -- but didn't Sozobe say that nobody gets paid in her organization? This should mean that the corporation has no payroll taxes to be liable for. Or does it mean that I've missed something again? You're an American, and you certainly know this better than I do.

<sniff>
I'm really very nice, Thomas. Maybe just a bit protective of the sozgirl and her pack. Maybe. A bit.

:-)

And the whole pack appreciates it, muchly.

The thing with incorporated, aside from my vague sense that it wouldn't be a cure-all (but which I haven't had time to track down), is that it makes the line blurrier. "You must incorporate!" OK, so, if they don't? Or if they don't see the need to? Or if they say they will, and in two weeks they haven't, and in three weeks they haven't...?

What is more attractive to me at this point is to just bow out, completely, and leave it to them to figure things out. Hoping they will, of course, but not making it contingent on me in any way. (Providing documentation to prove why it is necessary; bugging people about doing it if they are not; facing the decision of whether to just take over and do it myself if they are not; etc.)

You're probably right, and I'm sure you'll find the way to do it. Several fingers are crossed for you over here.

Good night

Not so sure about finding the way to do it, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

And don't sleep that way! You'll get a cramp.