I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

I see no unambiguous evidence that gods exist...

...and yet more nonsense about "not doing believing" !
Every time you cross a road junction on green you "believe" you are clear to proceed..... Every time you arrange a meeting for tomorrow you believe you and and the other party will still be alive to make it...etc,etc. As stated elsewhere, none of us, including you, would make a move out of bed without a plethora of "believing".

My problem is that it's an evasive, quibbling non-answer.

I expect better from you.

Anyway, you say "I express no belief in the existence of gods" doesn't accurately reflect your position…

…, but that "I am not expressing a belief in the existence of gods" does reflect it. I fail to see the distinction.

But this reveals far more about your personal motivations than about your intellectual position. For some reason you are intractably wedded to this largely incoherent formulation of your position, and this narcissistic thread is primarily designed to stroke your ego rather than to engage in any kind of constructive dialogue. If you are satisfied with expressing yourself in a muddled, incomprehensible fashion, then I certainly won't stop you.

. . .I prefer to use words other than "believe" or "belief" because I see those words as ambiguous.

Could you explain what ambiguous evidence you see that gods exist?

Ironically, Frank dislikes the use of the word "belief" because of its ambiguity, yet he continues to use the words "god" and "reality" which themselves are ambiguous, and as Frank has said, he cannot articulate what he means by them.

There was a question I asked you. Please answer it...then I will consider your next question.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I see no unambiguous evidence that gods exist...

Could you explain what ambiguous evidence you see that gods exist?

If you truly see no distinction between my words and yours, Joe, and if I have not said your words are unsuitable…and that I simply prefer to use my words rather than yours...why are you so intent on getting me to use your words rather than allowing me to use my own?

And there is absolutely no need for “intractably wedded to this largely incoherent formulation” or “narcissistic thread” or “stroke your ego” or “muddled, incomprehensible fashion.” Why do you think that kind of thing is necessary?

If what you mean is that you take no position on the existence of gods, that's something I can comprehend. I don't understand why you don't say that instead of saying "I do not believe gods exist, but I do not believe there are no gods," since the former is far more intelligible and defensible than the latter, but that's your choice. As I said, if you're comfortable being misunderstood, that's your affair.

Why?

... and What was it (I cannot see a question that needs to be answered)?

I hope you're not being evasive.

Surely it's your topic and therefore questions must be welcome because you get a chance to explain your position.

I initially had the sense that you started this thread because you were frustrated at having your position misunderstood. And I can understand why you were being misunderstood -- your position, as formulated, is a mess. Since I entered this thread, I have been trying to understand exactly what your position is. I am not trying to put words into your mouth, I'm trying to get you to explain what you mean.

If what you mean is that you take no position on the existence of gods, that's something I can comprehend. I don't understand why you don't say that instead of saying "I do not believe gods exist, but I do not believe there are no gods," since the former is far more intelligible and defensible than the latter, but that's your choice. As I said, if you're comfortable being misunderstood, that's your affair.

Some people need to indulge in simplified spelling schemes or engage in endless anti-American screeds or fancy themselves as contrarians on all issues of custom and morality in order to draw attention to themselves. You've chosen to be a martyr to an intentionally obscure phrase. Beats me why you or anyone else thinks that's necessary, but there you have it.

Agreed. This would be much better for Frank. It seems his resistance to this is caught up in his repulsion to accepting that he's weak atheist, and he can't handle that word "atheist."

It's a facade. He's pealing off all the labels on his atheist beer bottles, and taping on his own branding. People take a drink and say, "wow, this tastes like atheist beer!" Frank replies "Nope! Didn't you see the label?"

I see no unambiguous evidence that gods exist...

Quote:

Quote:
Anyway, you say "I express no belief in the existence of gods" doesn't accurately reflect your position…

Where did I do that? I thought I studiously avoided doing so.

I understand you have ambiguous evidence that gods exist, pray tell.

We all now know this is a 'Bait Thread' so for this one topic... i.e. only this one topic... let's all leave Frank to it and try to resist posting again... just a thought.

Of course you do not have to answer any questions, but I was wondering whether you gave this one any consideration...and if you would answer it.

I do not believe there are no gods.