I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Thanks again, Beth.

*slow clap*

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am still waiting for any of them to "shred" my contention that I lack a belief that gods exist...and I also lack a belief that gods do not exist.

You remind me of how Kim Jong Il would talk up the DPRK's power over the west. Nevermind the reality.

Frank, you are embarrassing yourself.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am still waiting for any of them to "shred" my contention that lacking belief in both is neither illogical or contradictory.

Lacking belief that gods exist is logical because there is no evidence of their existence.

Constructing an unbelief in no gods out of some sort of idiotic parity is not logical.

The contradiction is in your double negatives you use to construct your statement.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have a feeling it will be a LONG wait.

Your argument reminds me of kids passing notes in school.

Girl write to Boy: "Want to go out? Circle one: yes or no"
Boy writes back: "Maybe"
Girl replies: "maybe yes or maybe no?"

Now, what are the chances that the boy really doesn't know if he wants to go out with her? The only reason to sit on the fence is to hedge your bets. "Maybe," and even "maybe yes" really mean "no," and we all know this.

Similarly, in your case we deal with belief instead of desire (although it seems that in your case it's quite related).

1) You don't know if gods exist.
2) You don't believe in any gods.

However, you can't seem to simply break up with god. So instead of simply accepting your own lack of belief, you promote theatrics by typing a completely vacant declaration that...

3) You don't believe in there being no gods.

Frank, you're just being dramatic.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

there's a difference between grammar and philosophy

I couldn't agree more.

How shall we know what the philosopher means if not by what he says?

Joe(the poet only creates being)Nation

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@failures art,

Quote:

Frank, you are embarrassing yourself.

I try never to do so…and I fail to see how offering my argument does. If you want to think I am embarrassing myself, please feel free to do so.

Quote:

Lacking belief that gods exist is logical because there is no evidence of their existence.

Constructing an unbelief in no gods out of some sort of idiotic parity is not logical.

The contradiction is in your double negatives you use to construct your statement.

There is no contradiction, but apparently you are unable to see that. And simply stating that there is a contradiction is different from showing what the supposed contradiction is. Why not give that a go?

Quote:

However, you can't seem to simply break up with god.

Ahhh…so you think there is a god I cannot “break up” with.

Interesting.

F

Quote:

rank, you're just being dramatic.

Oh, if you could just see the irony of that comment in a post containing what this post contains! What a laugh you would get!

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Joe Nation, I will first of all acknowledge that losing respect for you…and having our friendship terminate this way is disappointing.

Frank, you're so stubborn you'll use emotional blackmail on a friendship? Your ego is so fragile over this that you'd rather protect your absurd posturing?

Snap out of it, you ******* idiot.

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@Frank Apisa,

I explained the contradiction. I pointed out your use of double negatives (like many before me). The double negatives make your statement into one that means that you believe that at least one exists which is in direct contradiction to "I do not believe any gods exist."

You're embarrassing yourself, and more so now that you've began to try and emotionally manipulate relationships. That's cowardly, dude.

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Quote:

I have clearly stated time and time again, that my statement “I do not believe gods exist” is NOT saying that I believe gods do not exist. It merely is a statement of a lack of belief that gods exist. They may exist…they may not. But I am not willing to “believe” that they do.

Then say so. Be clear about your lack of holding any position. You have said you have no opinion either way, so say that.
"I have no opinion."

Quote:

Try to grasp what I am actually saying rather than what you want to interpret it to mean.

Quote:
The first does not say you "lack a belief" that gods exist; it says, even using the negative, that [you] have/possess the belief that there are no gods.

That is an abs0lute absurdity considering the time and effort that I have gone through on so many occasions to specify that I am not stating a "belief" that there are no gods...JUST saying that I am absent a "belief" that they do exist.

Sorry about leaving out the 'you'.
That's what I am doing, trying to grasp; I am reading what you are writing, although I suspect Beth may think that's my problem, it isn't. I am not interpreting, I'm reading.

Any person saying "I do not believe gods exist." is professing a belief. You're trying to make it into an absence of belief, it's not. It's just not.
"I have no belief regarding the existence of gods." says: the person speaking has no belief.

Quote:

Joe Nation, I will first of all acknowledge that losing respect for you…and having our friendship terminate this way is disappointing.

"Having our friendship terminate ...." what the ??
Did you find out I'm a Red Sox fan?
A meat-eater?
A jaywalker?
That I have a chipped tooth?
ppfft.
You know where I am, not hard to find, really hard to get rid of.

Joe(like all pests)Nation

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@failures art,

Quote:

Frank, you're so stubborn you'll use emotional blackmail on a friendship? Your ego is so fragile over this that you'd rather protect your absurd posturing?

Snap out of it, you ******* idiot.

You are losing your cool, Art. Try to get back under control.

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@failures art,

Quote:

I explained the contradiction. I pointed out your use of double negatives (like many before me). The double negatives make your statement into one that means that you believe that at least one exists which is in direct contradiction to "I do not believe any gods exist."

You're embarrassing yourself, and more so now that you've began to try and emotionally manipulate relationships. That's cowardly, dude.

Try to get under control, Art. I will be delighted to respond after you do.

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@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation...I have completely clear right from the start. Go back to page one...and read what I wrote there. It is all spelled out.

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@Frank Apisa,

I have

Quote:

been

completely clear...

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are losing your cool, Art. Try to get back under control.

Sorry Frank, but you deserve to be called out on this crap. You're acting like a child and hanging real human relationships in the balance to take the heat off of you is nothing short of cowardly bullshit, and it should be called as such.

Emotional manipulation is not the sign of being "under control." Seriously, snap out of it. It's sickening that your posturing is more sacred to you.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
I explained the contradiction. I pointed out your use of double negatives (like many before me). The double negatives make your statement into one that means that you believe that at least one exists which is in direct contradiction to "I do not believe any gods exist."

You're embarrassing yourself, and more so now that you've began to try and emotionally manipulate relationships. That's cowardly, dude.

Try to get under control, Art. I will be delighted to respond after you do.

Your non-response is your own. I get no credit for where you intellectually withdraw and retreat.

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@failures art,

Quote:

Sorry Frank, but you deserve to be called out on this crap. You're acting like a child and hanging real human relationships in the balance to take the heat off of you is nothing short of cowardly bullshit, and it should be called as such.

Emotional manipulation is not the sign of being "under control." Seriously, snap out of it. It's sickening that your posturing is more sacred to you.

If I do something I ought be "called out on"...I accept the "calling out."

I am sorry you think that what I wrote was emotional manipulation, but that is your problem. It most assuredly was not.

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@failures art,

Quote:

Your non-response is your own. I get no credit for where you intellectually withdraw and retreat.

Anyone who thinks I would "retreat" must have some imagination.

I defy you to tell me the contradiction that lies in: I have an absence of belief that there are gods...I also have an absence of belief that there are no gods.

There is absolutely NO contradiction there whatever.

I defy you to point to a contradiction there.

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@Frank Apisa,

There may be those who claim you're an atheist, but I know you're a cargo cultist at heart.

I'll strangle a gerbil for you just to be on the safe side.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

If I do something I ought be "called out on"...I accept the "calling out."

Simply stated: No, you very much would not. You are not, and it does not seem that you will at any time accept being called out.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am sorry you think that what I wrote was emotional manipulation, but that is your problem. It most assuredly was not.

Don't apologize to me. Get over yourself. Your ego is a real problem, Frank.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Your non-response is your own. I get no credit for where you intellectually withdraw and retreat.

Anyone who thinks I would "retreat" must have some imagination.

Oh, how could I been so mistaken, an ego like yours would never retreat--even if it should.

That's not the point. The point is that I answered your question (again) and you refuse to accept that it's not even difficult to answer (again). So instead you play games about when you will reengage the discussion a la when I or others are "under control" or "angry" or whatever excuse that is within arm's reach.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I defy you to tell me the contradiction that lies in: I have an absence of belief that there are gods...I also have an absence of belief that there are no gods.

There is absolutely NO contradiction there whatever.

I defy you to point to a contradiction there.

First statement
Gods you believe in ==0;
Second statement
Gods you believe in >=1;

This is irresolvable.

That is as textbook of a contradiction as it comes. You defy me to do this, and it is done. Only your ego prevents you from owning up to this.

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I'm reminded about the controversy that the Vatican made for itself when it struggled to accept integer numbers. The introduction of "zero" and the power that such a number could have.

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Gonna get me a bottle of wine, Frank, and go back to page one where Joefromchicago first pointed out to you that you may not convert the meanings of words to meanings they do not possess. (belief/guess)
You even agreed with him and I, for a fleeting moment, thought this would be resolved.
Meanwhile, Alias has the math right.

Joe(greater than zero is not zero)Nation

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@failures art,

Quote:

Simply stated: No, you very much would not. You are not, and it does not seem that you will at any time accept being called out.

Yes, I would, but you are not going to accept that, so go with what makes you feel comfortable.

Quote:

Don't apologize to me. Get over yourself. Your ego is a real problem, Frank.

That was not an apology to you...and if it sounded like one, you may have greater problems than I suspect.

My ego is in fine shape, Art. But thank you for your concern.

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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

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