14
   

I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2012 03:54 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
No, it means that i, and others, have pointed the flaws in the thesis embodied in your thread title, and you won't address them. All you offer is a continual "is to/is not" argument of the type one can expect from a child. I've pointed out that you made a mistake in going from the simple agnostic position of "don't know" to the introduction of belief, and i've explained why that's a mistake, and how it's related to so many others here ripping your silly argument to shreds.


Try to keep calm, Setanta.

No one has ripped any arguments of mine to shreds.

I have an absence of beliefs that gods exists.

I have an absence of beliefs that gods do not exist.

Not sure what "flaws" you see in that, but any that you have indicated, I have defended.

Try to stay under control and tell me what is wrong with the absence of belief that gods exist. And when we finish with that, we can go on to what you see wrong with an absence of beliefs that gods do not exist.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2012 03:55 am
See ya all after golf!
Setanta
 
  3  
Thu 31 May, 2012 04:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
I'm calm--just more passive-aggressive hatefulness from you Frank. You'd love to think i'm angry, but you're not that important.

Everyone has ripped your silly thesis to shreds here. One statement is the position of the so-called weak atheist; the other statement is the position of what one might just as reasonably describe as the weak theist. Therein lies the contradiction which cripples your ludicrous thesis. You haven't answered that, you've just repeated the statement or said "nope," which is not debate, it's merely contradiction. As i've pointed out many times now, you were fine when you stuck with "i don't know." But having introduced belief into a discussion, you're tripping over your own feet. You just won't admit it. You've not defended your thesis, you've just gone the route of contradiction--you just say "no it's not."

And, of course, you continue to attempt to suggest that i'm angry, to tell me to calm down--because, in the end, you've got nothing else to offer. You're pathetic Frank.
igm
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2012 05:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
igm wrote:

Setanta wrote:

Everyone has ripped your silly thesis to shreds here. One statement is the position of the so-called weak atheist; the other statement is the position of what one might just as reasonably describe as the weak theist. Therein lies the contradiction which cripples your ludicrous thesis. You haven't answered that, you've just repeated the statement or said "nope," which is not debate, it's merely contradiction.

Worth highlighting.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Thu 31 May, 2012 08:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am willing to say that I cannot, at this time, think of a way to express a lack of belief in "x"...that does not include the possibility that "x" exists.

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Well, come to think of it, it was hard. I asked that question ten pages ago. It took you ten pages and a score of posts back and forth -- veering wildly between transparent evasion, feigned ignorance, and juvenile insults -- to arrive at your answer. And the funny thing is, it's the right answer -- or, at least, the only answer that makes sense, given the position that you've staked out. In other words, it's the answer you should have given ten pages ago. Why you tried so hard to avoid giving it is a complete mystery to me, but I long ago stopped caring.

I have other questions to ask, but I no longer have the patience to wait ten pages to pry a reluctant answer out of you. As it is, this entire thread can be summarized in an Onionesque headline: "Area Man Expresses No Opinion, and Does it Badly." I have, however, learned something here. Not so much about your position, Frank, but about you. I am confident that it will be a long time before I'm sucked into another one of your intellectually barren vortexes of self-caressing.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 31 May, 2012 08:59 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
I'm calm--just more passive-aggressive hatefulness from you Frank. You'd love to think i'm angry, but you're not that important.

Everyone has ripped your silly thesis to shreds here. One statement is the position of the so-called weak atheist; the other statement is the position of what one might just as reasonably describe as the weak theist. Therein lies the contradiction which cripples your ludicrous thesis. You haven't answered that, you've just repeated the statement or said "nope," which is not debate, it's merely contradiction. As i've pointed out many times now, you were fine when you stuck with "i don't know." But having introduced belief into a discussion, you're tripping over your own feet. You just won't admit it. You've not defended your thesis, you've just gone the route of contradiction--you just say "no it's not."

And, of course, you continue to attempt to suggest that i'm angry, to tell me to calm down--because, in the end, you've got nothing else to offer. You're pathetic Frank.


Jeez, Setanta...it doesn't sound like you are calm at all.

I still do not have a belief that gods exist...and I still do not have a belief that there are no gods.

Nobody here has indicated why they think that is illogical or contradictory. Yet now, we have several people pulling out troops and declaring victory.

No problem.

I've seen atheists do this often.

If anyone here wants to tell me why having an absence of belief either way on the question of the existence of gods is contradictory or illogical...

...I am willing to hear it.

I doubt I ever will hear it, though, because none of you can. Which, of course, accounts for the diversions you folk have made. That is why the conversation has gone on about me being an atheist...and about unicorns--because you guys know that there is absolutely nothing contradictory or illogical in the position I set out...but you don't have what it takes to simply acknowledge that.

It was good for me...how about you?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Thu 31 May, 2012 09:01 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Well, come to think of it, it was hard. I asked that question ten pages ago. It took you ten pages and a score of posts back and forth -- veering wildly between transparent evasion, feigned ignorance, and juvenile insults -- to arrive at your answer. And the funny thing is, it's the right answer -- or, at least, the only answer that makes sense, given the position that you've staked out. In other words, it's the answer you should have given ten pages ago. Why you tried so hard to avoid giving it is a complete mystery to me, but I long ago stopped caring.

I have other questions to ask, but I no longer have the patience to wait ten pages to pry a reluctant answer out of you. As it is, this entire thread can be summarized in an Onionesque headline: "Area Man Expresses No Opinion, and Does it Badly." I have, however, learned something here. Not so much about your position, Frank, but about you. I am confident that it will be a long time before I'm sucked into another one of your intellectually barren vortexes of self-caressing.


It has been that long and you still have not been able to acknowledge that my position is not illogical nor contradictory, joefromchicago.

So I guess I've learned something about you.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Thu 31 May, 2012 09:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
You sure want to suggest that i'm not calm. But i'm with Joe on this one, talking to you is a waste of time, even in the casual, unimportant context of the internet.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Thu 31 May, 2012 10:04 am
Quote:
I still do not have a belief that gods exist...and I still do not have a belief that there are no gods.

Really?
Good for you.

Let us know when you make up your mind.

Joe(meanwhile, sprinkling 'nots' throughout a sentence is wordplay, not philosophy.)Nation
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 02:32 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
You sure want to suggest that i'm not calm. But i'm with Joe on this one, talking to you is a waste of time, even in the casual, unimportant context of the internet.


Well, I do not think talking to you is a waste of time, Setanta...which is the reason I do it as often as I do.

I gotta wonder, though, since you consider it a waste of time to talk to me...why you do so much of it?
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 05:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Hope, Frank, we still have hope.

Joe( Cool )Nation
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 06:52 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Everyone has ripped your silly thesis to shreds here.


not so much. Two or three of us have posted our agreement with Frank's position.

We might not use as many words as three main 'shredders', but we're here.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 07:35 am
@ehBeth,
Thanks again, Beth.

I am still waiting for any of them to "shred" my contention that I lack a belief that gods exist...and I also lack a belief that gods do not exist.

I am still waiting for any of them to "shred" my contention that lacking belief in both is neither illogical or contradictory.

I have a feeling it will be a LONG wait.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 07:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Have you ever considered joining a cargo cult? There's an opening if you're interested.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 07:51 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Have you ever considered joining a cargo cult?


Nope.

Quote:
There's an opening if you're interested.


Thanks, but I'll pass.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 08:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
You mean: ...is neither illogical NOR contradictory. meh.
Either/or
Neither/nor
Both/and
~~~~
Several people, me included, have shown that your first statement:
I do not believe gods exist
is negated by your second statement:
But I do not believe there are no gods.

They are poetic, but they are contradictory for reasons I and others have pointed out.

You want to make them into something they are not.

The first does not say you "lack a belief" that gods exist; it says, even using the negative, that have possess the belief that there are no gods.

The second does not say you "lack a belief" that gods do not exist; it says, even using the double negative, that you possess the belief that there might be some gods in existence.

If you truly have no belief, then say so:
I have no thought, opinion or conclusion as to the existence or non-existence of gods.

That's your position, that you have no position.

It is my hope that you will grow out of that, you know I'll be here waiting.

Joe(I have eternity)Nation Smile

izzythepush
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 08:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Do you believe cargo exists?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 08:50 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Do you believe cargo exists?


Get at whatever you are getting at, Izzy.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 08:52 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Several people, me included, have shown that your first statement:
I do not believe gods exist
is negated by your second statement:
But I do not believe there are no gods.


there's a difference between grammar and philosophy

you haven't shown anything meaningful in reference to Frank's thread title
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2012 09:01 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation, I will first of all acknowledge that losing respect for you…and having our friendship terminate this way is disappointing.

I have clearly stated time and time again, that my statement “I do not believe gods exist” is NOT saying that I believe gods do not exist. It merely is a statement of a lack of belief that gods exist. They may exist…they may not. But I am not willing to “believe” that they do.

I mentioned that in my first reply post http://able2know.org/topic/190405-1#post-4979958…I covered it extensively. I have no idea of why you persist in trying to make the statement say something it does not, but it is a pity that you insisting on doing so.

Having clearly mentioned that I am unwilling to “believe” gods exist…I then go on to mention that I am unwilling also to “believe” that they do not exist. They may not exist…they may exist. But I am not willing to “believe” that they don’t.

There is no contradiction there…there is nothing illogical about what I wrote.

Try to grasp what I am actually saying rather than what you want to interpret it to mean.


Quote:
The first does not say you "lack a belief" that gods exist; it says, even using the negative, that have possess the belief that there are no gods.


That is an abs0lute absurdity considering the time and effort that I have gone through on so many occasions to specify that I am not stating a "belief" that there are no gods...JUST saying that I am absent a "belief" that they do exist.
 

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