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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

Forums: Religion, Word Salad, Logic, Apisa Match, Not Atheism
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joefromchicago
 
  0  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:02 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
Frank: If that's the case, how does one express a lack of belief in Santa Claus that does not include the possibility that Santa Claus exists?

Quote:
Frank: How about: I do not believe in Santa Claus…in fact, I believe that Santa Claus does not exist?

Quote:
JoeFromChicago: Are those statements equivalent?

Yes!

Thanks. I was beginning to think that there was some filter preventing that question from being visible. That's the only reason I could think of that would prevent Frank from answering it.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It's so cute that you think you can get my goat by posting lawyer jokes. Actually, I think a lot of lawyer jokes are pretty funny, so it's water off a duck's back for me, just as I'm sure you get a big kick out of dago jokes. Now those are hilarious! But you still haven't answered my question:

joefromchicago wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
If that's the case, how does one express a lack of belief in Santa Claus that does not include the possibility that Santa Claus exists?

How about: I do not believe in Santa Claus…in fact, I believe that Santa Claus does not exist?

Are those statements equivalent?
failures art
 
  0  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

A rock, in their opinion, might be an atheist because of their default argument.

A
R
The suffix "-ist" denotes a a personal noun.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:19 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
How about: I do not believe in Santa Claus…in fact, I believe that Santa Claus does not exist?


The first statement tells about a lack of belief in Santa Claus, joefromchicago. It does not assert that Santa Claus does not exist...and in fact, does not prevent the individual from logically suggesting that he/she also does not believe Santa Claus does not exist. The statement simply states that the speaker is not possessed of a belief in Santa Claus.

The second statement is an active assertion of a belief…a belief that Santa Claus DOES NOT EXIST.

They are not equivalent. (Sorry SpadeMaster, you were incorrect on that.)

Part of the problem is idiom. We have gotten use to using "I do not believe..." to mean "I believe the opposite of what I am saying I do not believe." But that is purely idiomatic...and with an explanation that it is not being used that way, should be accepted.

Weak atheists often mention, "I have no belief in GOD or gods"...and then stress that they are not saying, "I believe there are no gods." (They do not want to defend a belief!)

By now, you get it joefromchicago. You just refuse to acknowledge it.

Hey, no problem. I feel your...reluctance.

Here's another lawyer joke:


ATTORNEY: Do you recall the time that you examined the body?
WITNESS: The autopsy started around 8:30 p.m.
ATTORNEY: And Mr. Denton was dead at the time?
WITNESS: No, he was sitting on the table wondering why I was doing an autopsy on him!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:21 pm
@joefromchicago,

Quote:
It's so cute that you think you can get my goat by posting lawyer jokes. Actually, I think a lot of lawyer jokes are pretty funny, so it's water off a duck's back for me, just as I'm sure you get a big kick out of dago jokes. Now those are hilarious! But you still haven't answered my question:


Oops. Cross posted.

Hey, joefromchicago...I love those jokes. They are being told to give you a laugh. Not trying to get your goat.

Tell some "dago" jokes if you want.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:24 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
The suffix "-ist" denotes a a personal noun.


Yeah, but that is being logical.

There is absolutely no requirement that atheistic arguments be logical! In fact, many of them here are far from it!
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:33 pm
Spademaster (is that for gardening?
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, someone explain how using the double negative : "But I do not believe there are no gods." does not mean "I believe there are gods." I am willing and able to listen to a cogent speaker and writer of English.


There is one problem then (and I agree with you BTW)

Saying I do not believe that Gods exist...

Is a belief, and the same thing, as saying I believe, Gods do not exist...

As there is one negative, and one positive, from an atheist perspective, both ways...

Saying I do not believe (positive) that Gods exist (negative)...

I believe, (negative) Gods do not exist...(positive)

I have a rejection (negative) of belief (positive) that Gods exist (negative)

I have a rejection (Positive) of belief (negative) that God exist (negative)


Would you check what you have labeled positive and negative above and let me know if you see any mistakes?

Joe(you got my head spinning like in the Exorcist)Nation
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
The suffix "-ist" denotes a a personal noun.


Yeah, but that is being logical.

There is absolutely no requirement that atheistic arguments be logical! In fact, many of them here are far from it!

The only person to present the idea that a rock is an atheist is you, so the only absence of logic would be your own. Who exactly were you arguing against on the point of rocks? It was a total strawman. Without surprise, this is yet another failure on your part to understand words (in this case the fact that "ist" denotes a personal noun).

A
R
T
Rockhead
 
  2  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:35 pm
@failures art,
rocks are people too...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:37 pm
@Rockhead,
Quote:
rocks are people too...


Thank you, Rockhead, I needed a non-lawyer laugh!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:43 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
The only person to present the idea that a rock is an atheist is you, so the only absence of logic would be your own. Who exactly were you arguing against on the point of rocks? It was a total strawman. Without surprise, this is yet another failure on your part to understand words (in this case the fact that "ist" denotes a personal noun).


You are being too serious, Art. You are taking this too personal. It is only business...and you cannot take it too personal.

Anyway, Art, if your side is actually willing to insist that newborn babies are atheists by definition, I wouldn't get too worked up over the "ist" applying to rocks. I wouldn't even be surprised if the atheists here start arguing that the moon is an atheist. Being logical, I was noting, is not something that is playing big by the atheists in this discussion.

My guess is that you disagree!

So be it!
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:49 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Here is a wonderfully typical response from F'art.

failures art wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Yeah, and I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat or use any animal products.


Doesn't truly Frank's statement that he is an agnostic, not an atheist.

Can you reword this?

ehBeth wrote:

if the 'new' search was more effective, it'd be a bit easier to find more of these, but the standard response to "I'm agnostic" is some version of "you're an atheist". Frank's statement of "I am an agnostic" usually gets a stronger response than when others say it.

If you'd search my statements to Frank, you'd find that I've been direct with him that I don't question him being an agnostic at all. I've confronted him on the matter of the term as it pertains to atheism, and specifically noted that the term is not mutually exclusive as they pertain to categorically different ideas of knowledge and belief.

Frank has some weird baggage about being an atheist (which says nothing whatsoever about him being an agnostic), and has constructed an elaborate facade.

It's akin to: "I'm not a redhead, I wear hats!"

Having red hair and wearing hats are not mutually exclusive, and saying that you wear hats when confronted with the observation that you have red hair is completely besides the point.

To Frank, words seem to have a feeling, and that feeling is more important than a meaning.

Frank attempted to play along with this, until I pointed out that the definitions he relied on were flawed in that they relied on monotheistic normatives. There is no such thing as a "apantheist," and why is that do you suppose?

A
R
T
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:53 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Re: ehBeth (Post 4998288)
ehBeth wrote:

Here is a wonderfully typical response from F'art.

failures art wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Yeah, and I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat or use any animal products.


Doesn't truly Frank's statement that he is an agnostic, not an atheist.

Can you reword this?

ehBeth wrote:

if the 'new' search was more effective, it'd be a bit easier to find more of these, but the standard response to "I'm agnostic" is some version of "you're an atheist". Frank's statement of "I am an agnostic" usually gets a stronger response than when others say it.

If you'd search my statements to Frank, you'd find that I've been direct with him that I don't question him being an agnostic at all. I've confronted him on the matter of the term as it pertains to atheism, and specifically noted that the term is not mutually exclusive as they pertain to categorically different ideas of knowledge and belief.

Frank has some weird baggage about being an atheist (which says nothing whatsoever about him being an agnostic), and has constructed an elaborate facade.

It's akin to: "I'm not a redhead, I wear hats!"

Having red hair and wearing hats are not mutually exclusive, and saying that you wear hats when confronted with the observation that you have red hair is completely besides the point.

To Frank, words seem to have a feeling, and that feeling is more important than a meaning.

Frank attempted to play along with this, until I pointed out that the definitions he relied on were flawed in that they relied on monotheistic normatives. There is no such thing as a "apantheist," and why is that do you suppose?


But, Art, you do understand that I am not an atheist, right?
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 02:57 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
The only person to present the idea that a rock is an atheist is you, so the only absence of logic would be your own. Who exactly were you arguing against on the point of rocks? It was a total strawman. Without surprise, this is yet another failure on your part to understand words (in this case the fact that "ist" denotes a personal noun).


You are being too serious, Art. You are taking this too personal. It is only business...and you cannot take it too personal.

Oh, so you're withdrawing your argument? I accept your concession on this matter.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Anyway, Art, if your side is actually willing to insist that newborn babies are atheists by definition, I wouldn't get too worked up over the "ist" applying to rocks.

Maybe you don't know what a baby is and why a personal noun would be applicable.

Than again, I don't know the grammar rules of Franklish, so the difference might be cross-cultural. I keep mistaking your posts for English.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I wouldn't even be surprised if the atheists here start arguing that the moon is an atheist.

The moon is multiple rocks. I'm perfectly content to let you stone yourself to death with this strawman argument.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Being logical, I was noting, is not something that is playing big by the atheists in this discussion.

Specifically, one atheist golfer.

A
R
T
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 03:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
But, Art, you do understand that I am not an atheist, right?

http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/e4c10c8334a117b0a73baa73ae10d529?r=R&d=identicon&s=180
This man is "bearded."

If this man disagrees with the definition of "bearded," it's his problem. The word fits.

You don't believe in any gods. That makes you an atheist. Whether you call yourself this, or whether you identify as such, is inconsequential to the basic inclusive definition that squarely puts you as a weak atheist. It says nothing about you being or not being an agnostic.

A
R
T
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Wed 30 May, 2012 03:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
They are not equivalent.

Then that doesn't answer my question. I want to know if there's a way I can express a lack of belief in Santa Claus that does not include the possibility that Santa Claus exists. If saying "I believe Santa Claus doesn't exist" doesn't express a lack of belief in Santa Claus, then it doesn't say what I want to say. C'mon, Frank, your a smart guy, surely you can help me out here.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 03:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Tell some "dago" jokes if you want.

Nah, that's OK. I don't want to turn this thread into more of a joke than it already is.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 03:09 pm
@failures art,
Art, I am not an atheist.

Get over it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 03:10 pm
@failures art,
Yup, I am a bearded old guy.

I am not an atheist.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2012 03:11 pm
@joefromchicago,
What does them not being equivalent have to do with it.

The question is answered.

I hope you are able to understand the answer.
 

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