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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

Forums: Religion, Word Salad, Logic, Apisa Match, Not Atheism
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
So much anger.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Joe, I want very much to have your input on the questions asked in the OP.

You've had all you're going to get. It grieves me that you didn't understand it.

Frank Apisa wrote:
I do not believe gods exist...there are absolutely no gods that I believe exist. Define them as you will...I do not have a belief that the god exists. I am not saying they do not exist...I acknowledge many gods may exist or a single god may exist...but no matter what...and no matter how defined, I DO NOT HAVE A BELIEF that any gods exist.

Is it your position that "I do not believe" and "I do not have a belief" are equivalent statements?

Frank Apisa wrote:
So...what problem do you have with the first part of my title?

You're begging the question, my friend.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:51 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Alert the media:
Man Declares He Refuses to Offer an Opinion.

Laughing
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:56 pm
@igm,
Quote:
Conclusion: Frank as you offer no alternatives to 'know' and 'believe' you lack any view on god/gods. You are therefore 'without god' and that makes you a 'closet' atheist unless you can define what stance you have regarding god/s.

Oh, igm…I truly treasure how much you atheists want me to be one of you, but I must politely decline. I am not an atheist…and I can pretty much assure you that I will never be one. But I am honored that you want me in your ranks so much.

I did not say I am without gods…but I love the fact that you tried to shoehorn that thought into what I actually did say.

I have no idea if I am without gods. If there are gods, I am with gods…as are you and the atheists among us. If there are no gods, I am without gods, as are you and the theists among us.



Quote:
So if you have an absence of a view on god/s then that is synonymous with atheists who are 'without god/s'; they simply live without the concept of gods just as you do, unless you can explain how someone who neither believes in gods or who doesn't know if gods exist can have any view at all on the matter.


One, I did not say I have an absence of a view on gods. I have a very definite “view” on them. I do not know if they exist…or are just an invention of the human mind. Being where I am on the existence or non-existence of gods does not make me an atheist…and I definitely am not one. If I must be labelled, I am an agnostic.

Quote:
Your philosophy is not only useless it is the philosophy of avoiding awkward questions by never answering any.


I have answered more questions than anyone else in this thread--answered tens of dozens of them. At some point, I have determined that you just like asking questions that go nowhere, so I asked you to move on. Sorry you think that is avoiding yet more questions, but what can I do???


If you think my philosophy is useless…fine. Think it is as "useful" a philosophy as any others I've heard described here. In any case, I will not concern myself too much with the fact that we disagree on the value of my philosophy.

Quote:
Finally, as I've said many time before... so what!!!


Beats me. Why are you here?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:59 pm
@igm,
Quote:
You are therefore 'without god' and that makes you a 'closet' atheist unless you can define what stance you have regarding god/s.


I see you do not know Frank very well yet. Shocked

Frank has told us before that we can not prove that we are without Gods, fairies, elves and so forth, so it may be possible that they exist.

I am not sure that you could prove gravity to Frank, what would you do drop something? Frank might respond, "it could be the angles from heaven pushing down on it.

I think that Frank may have learned from this preacher when he was a younger man.


Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:02 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
So much anger.


Hey, Joefromchicago. Good to see you are sticking with me.

Nope, no anger. I will acknowledge there is a bit of personal disappointment with Joe Nation, but no anger.

Quote:
You've had all you're going to get. It grieves me that you didn't understand it.


No problem, Joefromchicago.

So much grief!

Quote:
Is it your position that "I do not believe" and "I do not have a belief" are equivalent statements?


Absolutely. That is why I have explained that I am using the words that way so many times in this thread. It doesn't grieve me that you don't understand it, but it does perplex me.

Quote:
You're begging the question, my friend.


I don't think so, Joefromchicago.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:03 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Re: Joe Nation (Post 4997193)
Joe Nation wrote:
Alert the media:
Man Declares He Refuses to Offer an Opinion.
Laughing


Yeah, I thought you would like that.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:06 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: igm (Post 4997239)
Quote:
You are therefore 'without god' and that makes you a 'closet' atheist unless you can define what stance you have regarding god/s.



I see you do not know Frank very well yet.

Frank has told us before that we can not prove that we are without Gods, fairies, elves and so forth, so it may be possible that they exist.

I am not sure that you could prove gravity to Frank, what would you do drop something? Frank might respond, "it could be the angles from heaven pushing down on it.


Enjoying this, RL?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Is it your position that "I do not believe" and "I do not have a belief" are equivalent statements?


Absolutely.

So the statement "I do not believe in Santa Claus" includes the possibility that Santa Claus exists, correct? If that's the case, how does one express a lack of belief in Santa Claus that does not include the possibility that Santa Claus exists?

Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
You're begging the question, my friend.


I don't think so, Joefromchicago.

Show me how I'm wrong.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Enjoying this, RL?


I always do.
igm
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:21 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I did not say I am without gods…but I love the fact that you tried to shoehorn that thought into what I actually did say.

My conclusion (see previous post) Frank is called 'inference' i.e. you don't have to of actually said what I'm inferring but it is a valid conclusion whether you agree or not. In the absence of belief you are an atheist no one 'needs' you, so no need to feel honored; that's the default setting when one has an absence of belief in god/s. Atheist is a term that can be used if one has an absence of a belief in god/s (and that fits you perfectly... like it or not). You become one without being invited.
Frank Apisa wrote:

Oh, igm…I truly treasure how much you atheists want me to be one of you, but I must politely decline. I am not an atheist…and I can pretty much assure you that I will never be one. But I am honored that you want me in your ranks so much.

Beats me. Why are you here?


I'm here exercising my right to 'free speech' and expressing an opinion. Your replies are always secondary, being that they are forever unsurprising and on a seemingly never-ending loop.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:25 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
So the statement "I do not believe in Santa Claus" includes the possibility that Santa Claus exists, correct? If that's the case, how does one express a lack of belief in Santa Claus that does not include the possibility that Santa Claus exists?


The statement "I do not believe in Santa Claus"...is a statement about what you do not believe...what you have a lack of belief in.

Quote:
Show me how I'm wrong.


Show me how you are correct.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:25 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I always do.


Good. I enjoy people enjoying themselves.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:28 pm
@igm,
Quote:
My conclusion (see previous post) Frank is called 'inference' i.e. you don't have to of actually said what I'm inferring but it is a valid conclusion whether you agree or not. In the absence of belief you are an atheist no one 'needs' you, so no need to feel honored; that's the default setting when one has an absence of belief in god/s. Atheist is a term that can be used if one has an absence of a belief in god/s (and that fits you perfectly... like it or not). You become one without being invited.


I probably have mentioned this before, igm, but in case you missed it--I am not an atheist.

I know you also want to call newborn babies "atheists" because it is a "default setting."

What could I tell ya, igm. You gotta stick with what you think makes sense...and I will stick with what I think makes sense.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
So the statement "I do not believe in Santa Claus" includes the possibility that Santa Claus exists, correct? If that's the case, how does one express a lack of belief in Santa Claus that does not include the possibility that Santa Claus exists?


The statement "I do not believe in Santa Claus"...is a statement about what you do not believe...what you have a lack of belief in.

That's interesting.

Now, how about actually answering my question?

Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Show me how I'm wrong.

Show me how you are correct.

Frank, if you want me to explain what "begging the question" means, all you have to do is ask. No need to play these silly games.
igm
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
My conclusion (see previous post) Frank is called 'inference' i.e. you don't have to of actually said what I'm inferring but it is a valid conclusion whether you agree or not. In the absence of belief you are an atheist no one 'needs' you, so no need to feel honored; that's the default setting when one has an absence of belief in god/s. Atheist is a term that can be used if one has an absence of a belief in god/s (and that fits you perfectly... like it or not). You become one without being invited.


I probably have mentioned this before, igm, but in case you missed it--I am not an atheist.

I know you also want to call newborn babies "atheists" because it is a "default setting."

What could I tell ya, igm. You gotta stick with what you think makes sense...and I will stick with what I think makes sense.

I see... you mean like how a new born person is by default a 'baby'. You stick with what makes sense to you. You're the one marching in time the rest of the troops are out of step...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:36 pm
I wonder:

If I had said, “I do not believe carbon based life forms exist on any planet circling the nearest three stars to Sol…and I also do not believe there are no carbon based life forms on any of those planets…

…would we have gotten into all this?

If I had used that construct to point out the possible “disorientation” that can occur with the use of the words “belief” or “believe” instead of the construct I did use, would that have been considered a contradiction?

Is the idiomatic “I do not believe…” so important to all of you that you would be doing 27 pages of arguing about how silly the notion is?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:37 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Frank, if you want me to explain what "begging the question" means, all you have to do is ask. No need to play these silly games.


You are the one playing silly games, Joefromchicago...not moi. Do it or don't do it...your choice.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:37 pm
What is a god?

Feel free to rearrange those four words so you can answer it.

Joe(the disappointment)Nation
igm
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I wonder:

If I had said, “I do not believe carbon based life forms exist on any planet circling the nearest three stars to Sol…and I also do not believe there are no carbon based life forms on any of those planets…

…would we have gotten into all this?

If I had used that construct to point out the possible “disorientation” that can occur with the use of the words “belief” or “believe” instead of the construct I did use, would that have been considered a contradiction?

Is the idiomatic “I do not believe…” so important to all of you that you would be doing 27 pages of arguing about how silly the notion is?



You said it... we're just trying to help you with your delusion and to make you feel wanted... what can we say... bud. You do remember saying how much you were enjoying all of this posting? How interesting and amusing you found it?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 03:41 pm
@igm,
Quote:
I see... you mean like how a new born person is by default a 'baby'.


So you are sticking with the notion that a newborn is an atheist because it does not have a belief in a god. You consider that sensible, reasonable, logical.

Okay...I get you. Stick with it.

Quote:
You stick with what makes sense to you. You're the one marching in time the rest of the troops are out of step...


Yeah, I think the notion is nuts. I think it makes no sense; is not reasonable; and is not logical.

It also is interesting to me that you think most people would agree with you...and find my position to be "marching out of step."

Very interesting.
 

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