9
   

What is your justification for disbelieving in the supernatural?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 11:41 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
The statistical chances for the existence of any entity complex enough to achieve all those tasks is practically negligible.

Based on which numbers can you make that assertion? Do we know what the requirements are? We know to some extent, but not near everything.

No numbers. And I don't have to know the details of how god is alleged to work to believe that the probability is vanishingly small. Entities that do all those things don't "just happen".
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 12:11 am
@Thomas,
I am inclined to agree. But I am basing that assertion on my own capacity to understand something that I know is more complex than I can fathom (the universe). Could it not be possible that the universe, when considered as one singularity, is an entity? I am not saying that this is so, merely that it's possible. Do all entities have to conform to our understanding of what entities are like here on earth, perceived by our human eyes?
I guess that might be a question of definitions.
But one thing I am pretty sure about is that this "universal entity" does not speak to anyone with words manifesting in their minds. It does not write books or moral rules on stone tablets or any of the things traditionally associated with gods.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 12:18 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
The statistical chances for the existence of any entity complex enough
to achieve all those tasks is practically negligible.
Cyracuz wrote:
Based on which numbers can you make that assertion? Do we know what the requirements are?
We know to some extent, but not near everything.
Thomas wrote:
No numbers. And I don't have to know the details of how god is alleged to work to believe
that the probability is vanishingly small. Entities that do all those things don't "just happen".
1. Do u accept, or reject out-of-hand, the possibility
that miracles have occurred (defined as the occurrence of events
that were deemed to be impossible, or improbable in the extreme)??

In your life's experience, have u ever encountered people
(friends or relatives) who have asserted that miracles happened to them ?


2. I surmise that concerning people who have mentioned social contact with discarnate entities
(e.g., deceased relatives, et al), u attribute that to cerebral dysfunction of a physical nature,
that there is no other possibility ?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 12:49 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
1. Do u accept, or reject out-of-hand, the possibility
that miracles have occurred (defined as the occurrence of events
that were deemed to be impossible, or improbable in the extreme)??

I don't reject the possibility out of hand, but I agree with David Hume's take on miracles. We should only accept them if very good evidence supports them --- evidence so good it would make the non-occurrence of the miracle an even greater miracle. Among the supernatural phenomena I've heard alleged, none passes this test.

OmSigDavid wrote:
2. I surmise that concerning people who have mentioned social contact with discarnate entities (e.g., deceased relatives, et al), u attribute that to cerebral dysfunction of a physical nature, that there is no other possibility ?

I attribute it to wishful thinking. I suppose you could call wishful thinking a "cerebral dysfunction", but it would sound a little pompous, no?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:04 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Could it not be possible that the universe, when considered as one singularity, is an entity? I am not saying that this is so, merely that it's possible.

Sure. But then again, (1) We have evidence that the universe exists. It's the existence of supernatural things that we don't have evidence for. (2) The question for this thread wasn't about something being possible, but about reasonably disbelieving in it. Big difference.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:31 am
@Thomas,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
1. Do u accept, or reject out-of-hand, the possibility
that miracles have occurred (defined as the occurrence of events
that were deemed to be impossible, or improbable in the extreme)??
Thomas wrote:
I don't reject the possibility out of hand, but I agree with David Hume's take on miracles. We should only accept them if very good evidence supports them --- evidence so good it would make the non-occurrence of the miracle an even greater miracle.
I agree with both u and Hume, on this point; good reasoning.



Thomas wrote:
Among the supernatural phenomena I've heard alleged, none passes this test.
Meaning no disrespect: have u tested them all ?
or have u been satisfied to assume
that the results of such tests woud be as u assume them to be ??




OmSigDavid wrote:
2. I surmise that concerning people who have mentioned social contact
with discarnate entities (e.g., deceased relatives, et al), u attribute that
to cerebral dysfunction of a physical nature, that there is no other possibility ?
Thomas wrote:
I attribute it to wishful thinking.
I suppose you could call wishful thinking a "cerebral dysfunction", but it would sound a little pompous, no?
Lemme get this straight, Tom:
if I bet a couple of horses for the Daily Double at Belmont who won,
u will agree that it was a miracle IF I wishfully thought of their athletic success?





David
rosborne979
 
  5  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 04:33 am
@hamilton,
Disbelief in the supernatural is more of an assumption that it is something which needs to be justified. But if I had to try to justify the assumption I would start with the observation that there are no elements of collective human experience which are better explained by the supernatural than they are by the natural. And those elements of historical human experience which at the time seemed better explained by the supernatural, have all fallen to natural explanations which not only fit better, but also make predictions (which also end up being confirmed).

Even if the supernatural did exist, it has no functional value in this world, other than entertainment. Supernatural explanations don't increase knowledge. They don't improve functional results. Supernatural explanations are functionally indistinguishable from delusion and fantasy.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:45 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Meaning no disrespect: have u tested them all ?
or have u been satisfied to assume that the results of such tests woud be as u assume them to be ??

I think I've tested all I've heard alleged, but I have not tested all that might conceivably exist. (I don't see how I could possibly do that.) But I assume that the supernatural phenomena most likely to be brought up in conversations are the ones whose existence matters the most. And if my belief is false about supernatural entities that don't matter, that doesn't matter; holding the belief anyway will do no epistemic harm.

OmSigDavid wrote:
Lemme get this straight, Tom: if I bet a couple of horses for the Daily Double at Belmont who won, u will agree that it was a miracle IF I wishfully thought of their athletic success?

Eventually, maybe, but on the face of it I'd think you're more likely connected to some mobster who rigged the races for you. To rebut presumptions like this, the evidence of your psychic powers would have to be incredibly good.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 08:22 am
@Thomas,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Meaning no disrespect: have u tested them all ?
or have u been satisfied to assume that the results of such tests woud be as u assume them to be ??
Thomas wrote:
I think I've tested all I've heard alleged, but I have not tested all that might conceivably exist.
(I don't see how I could possibly do that.) But I assume that the supernatural phenomena most likely
to be brought up in conversations are the ones whose existence matters the most. And if my belief is false
about supernatural entities that don't matter, that doesn't matter; holding the belief anyway will do no epistemic harm.
OK. Let 's consider this fenomenon.
(I 've read of it happening several times.):
A guy is sick in a hospital. He perishes, despite their best efforts;
i.e., no EKG, no respiration, no EEG for several minutes; maybe an hour.

His family is out in the waiting area.
One of his relatives is bad-mouthing the sickie, or the deadie,
whose consciousness drifts out there to his family then & there observing his defamation.
Having taken umbrage, his consciousness and his spirit re-enter
his human body which proceeds, in due course, to legal counsel
and disinherits the foul-mouthed relative.

(Sadly, I don 't have names or addresses for the participants herein.)
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 08:28 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
(Sadly, I don 't have names or addresses for the participants herein.)

That's too bad. Since we both agree on Hume's approach, let's talk again when you have evidence it actually happened.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 09:19 am
@rosborne979,
Excellent, Ros. I agree wholeheartedly, indeed preternaturally.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 11:09 am
@Thomas,
But if we can argue that something is possible, wouldn't that affect our 'reasonably disbelieving'?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:21 pm
@Cyracuz,
I totally agree. We humans can only rely on very limited knowledge and perceptons, and even then most of what we believe and trust are based on subjective understanding.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:26 pm
@hamilton,
What does "disbelieve in gods" mean?

How does "I disbelieve in gods" differ from "I believe there are no gods?"

How does it differ from "I am not saying I believe there are no gods, I just do not believe in gods?"
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:29 pm
@rosborne979,
Perfect, ros.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 04:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
His family is out in the waiting area.
One of his relatives is bad-mouthing the sickie, or the deadie,
whose consciousness drifts out there to his family then & there observing his defamation.
Having taken umbrage, his consciousness and his spirit re-enter
his human body which proceeds, in due course, to legal counsel
and disinherits the foul-mouthed relative.


Lol!
It doesn't bode well for the promise of an afterlife if dead people might prefer family drama over passing on... Very Happy
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:02 pm
@Cyracuz,
Different people have rendered accounts of different experiences;
I wonder how well it worked out for Saddam ??????

Suicides and atheists have had some complaints.





David
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 07:34 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
But if we can argue that something is possible, wouldn't that affect our 'reasonably disbelieving'?

Affect, yes, rule out, no. For example, it is possible that the Green-party candidate will win the next presidential election in America. But it's unlikely enough that it's reasonable to believe she won't.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 09:00 pm
@rosborne979,
Ros, It does have functional value(s). It provides humans with a place to wed, and to have funerals. For some, it provides a place for socialization, and a place to pray. Research has also shown that people who pray for their own health have shown improvement.

For many humans, it provides a place of comfort and security.

Besides all that, many cultures and peoples have devoted much treasure and skill at building some beautiful structures.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 04:22 am
TO ANYONE HERE WHO HAS ANSWERED THIS QUESTION:


What does "disbelieve in gods" mean?

How does "I disbelieve in gods" differ from "I believe there are no gods?"

How does it differ from "I am not saying I believe there are no gods, I just do not believe in gods?"

 

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