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"Austerity" now a dirty word in Europe

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:31 pm
@nimh,
In Schleswig-Holstein as well as here (that's what has been the opinion in the various talk shows tonight) it has been a 'victory' of the local FDP-princes (Kubicki, Lindner) over the federal king(s).
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:31 pm
@nimh,
So maybe they shouldn't be asking what they're doing right in the Laender, but what they're doing wrong on the federal level. Good to see you, by the way!
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:38 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Ah, ok. Yeah I'd heard that the FDP campaign in S-H had basically been running away from the national FDP as hard as they could - something of that dynamic going on here then too?

Also - whoa - according to that Spiegel link, there is a district (Dortmund 1) in which the Pirate candidate got 40% of the constituency vote?? Oh wait, the percentages add up to 130% .. must be a typo.
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:39 pm
@Thomas,
Howdie. Had to check in with Walter when I saw the results come in Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:40 pm
@nimh,
He got 10.4%
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:45 pm
They're already touting Steinbruck as the possible next Chancellor. This from WELT ONLINE:


WLT ONLINE wrote:

Peer Steinbrück Sigmar Gabriel Frank-Walter Steinmeier SPD "Aufwärts", haucht eine Frauenstimme im Fahrstuhl des Hauses Unter den Linden 50. Hier, in Berlin-Mitte, unweit des Brandenburger Tors, residiert im vierten Obergeschoss der Bundestagsabgeordnete Peer Steinbrück. Wer sich Steinbrücks Büro nähert, passiert schon nach wenigen Metern die Türen zu den Räumlichkeiten, in denen "Gerhard Schröder, Bundeskanzler a. D." untergebracht ist.

Es riecht nach Zigarrenrauch. Steinbrück stehen drei vergleichsweise schmale Zimmer zur Verfügung; wer den ersten Raum betritt, steht fast am Schreibtisch seiner Büroleiterin Sonja Stötzel, links geht es zu seinem Mitarbeiter Sebastian Petzold.

Gegenüber, auf rund 15 Quadratmetern, arbeitet Steinbrück. Ein riesiges Schiffsmodell steht hinter Glas, an der Wand lehnt eine Lithografie mit dem Konterfei Helmut Schmidts. Ein Plakat von "Russlands Seele", einer Ausstellung von Ikonen, Gemälden und Zeichnungen aus der Moskauer Tretjakow-Galerie in der Bonner Kunst- und Ausstellungshalle, hängt an der Wand.


mehr hier:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article106298184/Kann-Peer-Steinbrueck-Kanzler.html?wtmc=google.editorspick?wtmc=google.editorspick

Hiya, nimh. Where you been?

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 02:59 pm
Well, it took a couple off pages of people who are not German commenting, but thanks to Walter for his observations and journatlistic quotes. Some days, you have to be patient to get your answers.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 06:18 pm
I've been thinking about the problem of Greece. It's an economy ready for a body bag right now. That being the case, I don't see how its leaving the Eurozone would help anyone, least of all Greece itself. The logistics involved in switching back from the Euro to the Drachma (or whatever new currency might be instituted) are mind-boggling. And in the final analysis it would not in any way shore up the Euro. The other EU members would still have a responsibility to help in the recovery of its long-suffering member.

Add to that the fact that Portugal and Spain aren't that far behind Greece in their unemployment numbers and we've got an unholy mess in Europe right now.

I also think that part of the problem as regards "austerity" is that Merkel -- and virtually all Germans familiar with their own 20th century history -- can't get beyond fear of the triple-digit inflation that hit them during the time of the Weimar Republic in the 1920s and 1930s. Any debt that could lead to inflation is a boogey-man nobody wants to consider. But Merkel won't be at the helm forever (or even for long). What happens when a more laissez faire, in terms of economics, Chancellor takes over?

We live in extremely interesting times.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 07:00 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I don't know enough about domestic politics in Germany to comment on much of the above.

However, with respect to Greece, I suspect the issue has more to do with the willingness of the Greek people, through their political process, to face, all at once, the consequences of the past profligacy of their governments and those who benefitted from its excessive spending and financial deceptions. If Greece is to stay in the EUROZONE then the donor nations will want assurances that the price to them is clear, bounded and acceptable, and that the Greeks will, without delay, institute and stick to the financial reforms and spending restraints required to make it work at that price.

The advantage of leaving the EUROZONE and reinstituting the Drachma is that the ordinary market process will devalue the new Greek currency to whatever level required to match their government spending restraint (or lack of it) and renewed economic productivity (or lack of it). The Greeks won't have to face the music all at once - things will just happen to them, and the wealth of all the savers among them will be wiped out. Given their past dependence on government and recent unwillingness to face the music, I strongly suspect that their departure from the EUROZONE is inevitable.

All the talk about austerity seems strange to me. The observable fact is that no one wants to lend the Greek government the money they need to continue their spending. The transition happened suddenly about 18 months ago with Greek debt at about 125% of GDP; Greek current deficits soaring; and the history of past financial deceptions by the Greek government becoming known. Not long ago intrest rates on Itallian government bonds began soaring at a point where Italian debt was about 120% of GDP and Italian current deficits were chronic and high. A similar thing happened to Spain where national debt was much lower (about 60% og GDP I believe) but current deficits very high. A Greek-like crisis appeared imminent. Both countries have very high unemployment, particularly among the young, and highly reulated, rigid labor markets that inhibit new business startups and measures to raise economic productivity. I suspect these were factors as well. It was the creation of an EU rescue fund that thwarted a collapse then.


Somehow all these countries need to restore the confidence of those who would lend them the money they need to continue government spending. Increased government borrowing and spending does not seem to be a feasible way to do that, no matter what that little weasel Krugman may say. They need to stimulate new private sector economic activity; raise the labor productivity of their workforce and, try to increase their export earnings. All that appears to require, more private sector investment, faster enterprise formation, increased labor market flexibility, lower wages and higher productivity.

I don't think there is any economic theory that can reliably tell us when such loss in confidence among potential lenders will occur with governemtns running large current deficits. All we know is that the crisis happens fairly suddenly and without much warning. Overall debt levels as a function of GDP are a factor, as are other issues likecureent deficit trends, the rates of capital formation and new business enterprise formation, labor productivity and the flexibility of financial and labor markets to deal with the required changes - in short all the factors that might encourage potential lenders that the debts will in fact be repaid.

If a nation needs to borrow money on a continuing basis then it must sustain the credibility its potential lenders need to make their bets on it. Often that calls for changes that the former protected classes of citizens who benefited from the former restricted labor or financial markets or directly from government spending will call "austerity". I suspect the potential lenders and bond buyers would call it something else - like financial integrity, economic productivity, adaptability and the apility to produce values goods and services at a competitive price.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 13 May, 2012 08:44 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
no matter what that little weasel Krugman may say.


Do you have any area of expertise, Gob, besides bullshitting and bombing innocent civilians?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 08:52 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The advantage of leaving the EUROZONE and reinstituting the Drachma is that the ordinary market process will devalue the new Greek currency to whatever level required to match their government spending restraint (or lack of it) and renewed economic productivity (or lack of it). The Greeks won't have to face the music all at once - things will just happen to them, and the wealth of all the savers among them will be wiped out. Given their past dependence on government and recent unwillingness to face the music, I strongly suspect that their departure from the EUROZONE is inevitable.
I think, too that they'll leave the Euro-Zone, latest after new elections when Tsipras' Syriza Party will form a government (or will be the main part of a coalition).

georgeob1 wrote:
They need to stimulate new private sector economic activity; raise the labor productivity of their workforce and, try to increase their export earnings. All that appears to require, more private sector investment, faster enterprise formation, increased labor market flexibility, lower wages and higher productivity.
I think that this will be very difficul for Greece, mainly the Greek population.
Okay, the government doesn't pay back the credits (Germany will loose by that between 50 and 80 billion Euros). Exports will be easier/better to sell, salaries will be lower than elsewhere - which will drive foreign money in country and attract even more tourists.
Like in wonderland, from one day to the other, the Greek state won't have any debts.
Private savings, however, would loose xx%, imported goods would be unaffordable for most, the domestic demand would drop, the economy generally would diminish.

Not to mention the social peace ...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:11 am
If i am not mistaken, it will also require the Greeks to stop cheating on their taxes.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:23 am
@Setanta,
That will never happen!

Frankly, I don't see any other way for Greece than to leave the Euro and the EU, since they do not meet the requirements to stay in the EU.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:32 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Private savings, however, would loose xx%, imported goods would be unaffordable for most, the domestic demand would drop, the economy generally would diminish.


Not if you Germans can be convinced to go to Greece for cheap holidays in the sun, like you once went to Spain for cheap holiday. This would be a soft landing, like Iceland Greece will barely be punished for default.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:35 am
@CalamityJane,
They didn't meet the requirements to join the Eurozone in the first place, so I can't see a little matter like 'meeting requirements' as reason to kick them out of the EU.

This is the result of crony capitalism, where the rich pay little or no tax in return for political funding. It's not a problem limited to Greece.

Quote:
The system in question is most commonly called clientelist. It involves the Greek elite – the shipowners, doctors, lawyers and top journalists – funding the two main parties and getting top civil service jobs for its sons and daughters in return for investment, as well as a lifelong tax holiday. It was an unsustainable bargain that was covered up in the national accounts, and that spectacularly unravelled when the country could no longer borrow on international markets to fund its habits.

When the outgoing government went after Athens doctors in a belated attempt to raise some revenue, it found that the majority paid nothing, having declared their income at just below the minimum tax threshold of €12,000 while driving cars worth many times that amount. In a battle of wills between reformists in government and the elite, the reformists lost. The government collapsed and elections last week brought only stalemate and the uncertain prospect of another vote.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/13/petros-markaris-greek-rage-fiction
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:36 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Not if you Germans can be convinced to go to Greece for cheap holidays in the sun, like you once went to Spain for cheap holiday.


You've obviously never been to Crete.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:38 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:
... since they do not meet the requirements to stay in the EU.
Those are ... ?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:41 am
@izzythepush,
On the contrary, I believe a najor part of the political & economic disease in Greece is runaway populism with a succession of left wing and socialist governments recklessly padding government payrolls with their constituents; granting productivity destroying subsidies to various classes of workers and citizen voters; and faking their financial reports tot eh EU and international bankers to keep the party going. I have no doubt that the rich among the Greeks did all they could to benefit themselves in the process, but the obvious fact here is that this fiasco was the creation of populist left wing politicians.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:43 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Not if you Germans can be convinced to go to Greece for cheap holidays in the sun, like you once went to Spain for cheap holiday. This would be a soft landing, like Iceland Greece will barely be punished for default.
Iceland wasn't and isn't an Euro-Zone country. Iceland wasn't and still isn't an EU-country (it was/is, however, part of the EU's internal market and the Schengen Area).
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 10:47 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

That will never happen!

Frankly, I don't see any other way for Greece than to leave the Euro and the EU, since they do not meet the requirements to stay in the EU.


You may well be correct with respect to the facts of their qualification for EU membership. However, I suspect it will be very difficult in the current political situation for the other members to expell Greece from the EU altogether - at least in the near term. All of the EUROZONE members, and to some extent all EU members, have some serious political issues ahead of them with respect to both the financial stability agreements and, as well, the continuing evolution of EU governance and the attendant struggle between proponents of national power and that of the EU community. I can see Greece leaving the EU in a few years as a result of that process, but believe that an earlier departure is unlikely.
 

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