"Austerity" now a dirty word in Europe

@Finn dAbuzz,

It's not FREE health care. People pay premiums for the service.
The biggest cost to most health care systems is the pension plans, not the actual service. Same with education and the public service. Doesn't matter if it is in a country with socialized medicine or not.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

The NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare systems in the world. You spend more money per person over there than we do.

The problem it's facing now is that an unelected government is trying to force through unwanted market-style reforms that it specifically ruled out in its manifesto. That is undemocratic in the extreme, but it's typical of right wing politicians the world over.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

However you want to sugar coat it Finn, you're talking about killing the poor. This is just another form of social cleansing and ratcheting up the climate of fear, on the common man. It's totally immoral.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

It's not FREE health care. People pay premiums for the service.
The biggest cost to most health care systems is the pension plans, ...

We pay of course, too. But pensions aren't covered health care here. (The biggest cost is the costs for staying in hospitals here.)

Pensions are paid by the "retirement insurance". And they don't have have really a big problem.

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@Walter Hinteler,

So, everyone in Germany get's their public pension from the same pot? In Canada and the US, whatever organization you work for pays your pension - aside from a public (pathetic) pension.
Providing they offer pensions... Not every company or org. does. Depends on the contract. Many people fund their own retirements because of this.
Public (government) jobs have some of the richest pension plans.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

So, everyone in Germany get's their public pension from the same pot? In Canada and the US, whatever organization you work for pays your pension - aside from a public (pathetic) pension.
Providing they offer pensions... Not every company or org. does. Depends on the contract. Many people fund their own retirements because of this.
Public (government) jobs have some of the richest pension plans.

Well, up to a certain income, everyone it's mandatory to pay in the 'pension insurance. (Until a few years ago, there have been several for workers and one for employees - now it's just one.) Everyone can pay voluntary in this insurance.

Civil servants have a different system.

Of course, we've got company pension insurances as well private insurances. (Until recently this meant that some public employees [not civil servants!] got more pensions than there salary had been. This can't happen anymore.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

K, very similar to our set up. Just one public plan with mandatory payment per pay cheque. I'm confused as to who pays doctors/health care workers pensions. Where does the money come for that. Here, it's paid by the public coffer, but it comes out of the Health care budget.

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@Walter Hinteler,

That's been the problem with pensions for safety officers in our area; they can work for 30-years and get 90% of their last salary for their pension plus health insurance - for longer than they have worked.

When I participated in the Civil Grand Jury of Santa Clara County in 2003-2004, we wrote a report that the city and county could not afford to continue their pension programs, but they told us they had to compete for the best by offering those benefits. They are now cutting other program services to pay for those benefits.

The mayor of San Jose is now putting a vote on the next election (June 5) to reduce pension benefits, because the unions have not negotiated in good faith; they don't want to sacrifice anything while other government programs get cut. They've been negotiating for the past 8 years with no result to cut those benefits.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

.I'm confused as to who pays doctors/health care workers pensions. Where does the money come for that.

Those working in hospitals and with companies get their pensions from the mandatory insurance (if they've paid in it) and that of the company and most certainly from their private insurance as well.

Doctors in practises (that's family doctors as well as specialists) are self-employed, pay in the pension plans of their Chambers of Physicians. (That's what some hospital doctors do as well, since many work in private practice, too.)

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@cicerone imposter,

This "problem" was here with all public employees: they got the normal mandatory pension plus the (mandatory, too) 'public employee pension'. (They'd paid in both, though!)
Father's aunt (my godmother), a social worker, got about 115% of her last salary - but that was 40 years ago.

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@Walter Hinteler,

An example.
My late father was a leading physician in a hospital. He got his pension from the pension insurance that company (a nun's order) was associated with (which was the civil servants insurance), at the normal rate, about 70% of his last salary.
He worked some hours/week for the district council as well - got the pension from the mandatory insurance.
And he worked in his private practice, was insured privately for the pension via the Chambers of Physicians.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I read a few years ago that the highest pension paid to a safety officer was $114,000/year plus free health insurance.

That's more than the per capita income of our area, and we're one of the highest in the country!

Here's a chart that shows pension and health insurance benefit for City of San Jose workers.

Quote:

Current Base Pension Formulas for the City’s Retirement Plans
Police Fire Federated
Eligibility
age when employee can begin collecting benefits
55 after 20 years
50 after 25 years
Any Age after 30 years
55 after 20 years
50 after 25 years
Any Age after 30 years
55 after 5 years
Any Age after 30 years
Benefit Formula
based on employee’s final compensation 2.5% per year for the first 20 years of service

4% per year for every year after 20 years of service
2.5% per year if employee works 20 years or less

3% per year if employee works more than 20 years 2.5% per year for every year of service
Maximum Benefit Police Officers: 90% of final compensation
Firefighters: 90% of final compensation Federated: 75% of final compensation

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

and you countered with my ignorance of all things American.

No, actually I countered with your ignorance [or pretense of the same] of the war crimes and terrorist activities of successive US governments and what did you do, surprise, surprise, the usual list of diversions.

Shall we go over a couple?

Quote:

You are boring JTT, and that has nothing to do with whether or not your obsessive screeds are in fact entirely true.

Odd how you, and others, like to deal with these truths. Diversions, lies, shoot the messenger - have I missed any?

Quote:

Except for the occasional foray into language, your sole contribution to this forum are your repetitive rants.

Another of the diversionary memes, Finn. Of course you and others deem them this way, as rants. Consider how long y'all have subjected the world to your rants about all the bad guys doing all manner of murder and mayhem in the world when it was the US that is the world leader in such actions.

And the hypocrisy that has flowed from this is, as I'm sure you must agree, simply unbelievable.

Quote:

Either your goal is to educate us on what you perceive to be the truth about America, or to damn us for our complicity.

Both, actually, Finn. Education, as I'm sure you'll agree, is a good thing. Complicity is another issue. As soon as you provide cover for these crimes, divert attention away from them, make excuses for them, you are, by definition, complicit.

Kinda like this.

If it's the former you have absolutely no hope of achieving your goal, and if it's the latter, pretty much everyone in this forum has replied with either a "shut the **** up you nagging bore," or the ignore button.

History [yours] tells us that they aren't things that you want to address.

But again, I ask, why wouldn't you want to learn about things that illustrate that so many of the things you were taught were a pack of lies? How is it that you are so lacking in curiosity?

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@Walter Hinteler,

I don't know what the discussions are, I only know what I read.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

That's what I was thinking. Unsustainable economics. Nice while it lasts....

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@Lash,

Ironically, it's in the states where we see cities and states going bankrupt and handing out IOU's to it's retired public sector. The American dream...

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@Ceili,

...is still alive and well for many. When Facebook went public, all their employees became instant millionaires.

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@Ceili,

Europe going belly up AND spreading propaganda. Razz

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

...is still alive and well for many. When Facebook went public, all their employees became instant millionaires.

Yes, but if that keeps up pretty soon the word "millionaire" will no longer mean what it means today. When everyone has a million, a million no longer has any value.

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@Lustig Andrei,

I don't think that day will arrive any day soon, because the per capita income in the US is $47,200.

The cost of living in Silicon Valley is relatively high compared to other parts of the US - probably with the exception of Hawaii and NYC. It's the cost of housing that has the most influence.

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"Austerity" now a dirty word in Europe

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