What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

"And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

4 Replies

@spendius,

I just told you, I agree, it will never fall...Did you miss that?

Anyone who embraces Christ is with him...

I am not against the Church...I do not believe everything Catholics say is 100% right....

If there was only one...

What is MORE important, faith in Christ? Or the Church?

Again, what is the simplest way, or most basic thing to do, to have salvation in Jesus Christ?

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@spendius,

John 3:17

New International Version (©1984)
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 3:34

New International Version (©1984)
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

New Living Translation (©2007)

Luke 4:18

New International Version (©1984)
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

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@spendius,

Now, please quote where exactly it says in the Bible one MUST follow and obey, everything the Catholic Church says, to be saved???

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@spendius,

Romans 10:9

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Matthew 10:32

New International Version (©1984)
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:8

New International Version (©1984)
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

But isn’t that just from a book written by men?

3 Replies

@jcboy,

Quote:

But isn’t that just from a book written by men?

It all depends on how you look at it...By men and women? yes, but they were Prophets, and Apostles, as well as Christ, so it all depends on how much you regard those people....As actually having God speak thru them, or not....Maybe it is, but that is not what I am debating here....It is whether or not Spendi thinks I am a true Christian, or not....

He asked me to provide where the Church said what I said about salvation....And not only does the Church embrace it, but it is in the Bible....Which we both embrace....So his point is moot...

I showed this to you before, and even mentioned it earlier today....The Church, and things are different than some scripture, I believe....

I gave you a perfect example, by saying you're not a wicked man, based on being gay...But what your heart, and relationship to God is....

So I do not believe things will be exactly how people think, but I could be wrong....

Not from what I can see, feel, and experience....

It is your heart, that will ultimately decide how true you believe God really is or not, and the choice (if one) will be up to the mortal....

That should answer your question for you....

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@jcboy,

I am just saying to you, and your question... That if you truly believe God is not real....Or are against him, I am not sure...I never asked, and you never told me...I really hope the reason, is not because so many Christians have told you, you're going to Hell, for being gay....

Because I do not believe it to be....

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@jcboy,

Honestly, From my perspective...I think you're a very educated man....Very decent chap....And are different than a lot on here....I like what you have to say, you have patience, and are slow to anger....

So much so, That I hope, one day, you and I can ultimately be friends....

I know maybe not now, and time heals everything...

But I think you really are such a good, nice guy, I would like to be your friend someday! Wink

And if not, I respect that....And I am glad I had the chance, and you gave me the opportunity to genuinely tell you how I felt about you! Wink

See ya around!

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
You're using parity, and I'm using the word "parity."

Gimme a quote of where I am using parity so that I can understand what in hell you are talking about.

Parity - [par-i-tee]
(noun)
1. equality, as in amount, status, or character.
2. equivalence; correspondence; similarity; analogy.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST...and I am not an atheist.

I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS DO NOT EXIST…and I am not a theist.

You've applied the form of one statement to the other without justification. You've forced atheism into being a belief itself to fulfill the parity of your philosophy. You don't believe in gods, but you resist acknowledging that this makes you an atheist.

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1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Sorry, I am a Christian...But it is not because I have a belief in Jesus Christ...

It is because I have a REJECTION of belief, in Buddha, and am not Buddhist....

It is because I have a REJECTION of belief, in Mohammed, and am not Islam...

It is because I have a REJECTION of belief, in Krishna, and am not Hindu...

Keep going Spade, you've only named a few religions! Plenty more to go! Tell me about how much time you've researched the above three before rejecting them.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

It is because I have a REJECTION of belief of Atheism, and am not atheist...

There is no belief in Atheism.

If every atheist died on Monday, and all knowledge of atheists were wiped from peoples' mind. On Tuesday morning, there would be atheists.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Do you guys understand why others do not understand you? Or misunderstand you?

Sure, because many misconceptions exist about what an atheist is.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Seems you do not fully understand yourselves....

So atheists are in some sort of special existential crisis that theists aren't?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If your a skeptic, call yourself a skeptic...Do not call yourself a person who has a rejection of something....

Funny thing, I do call myself a skeptic.

Given however, the meaning of the words "atheist" and "agnostic," there is no exclusive reason why all of these terms fit wince they are not mutually exclusive.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Assert yourself in the positive, rather than having a God who is not real bring your name down....

If he is not real, and you have no belief, take God out of there....It is not even needed...

Which is why I point out that the most inclusive definition of atheist is that simply "gods do not feature among the things they believe in."

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1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

That is why when an atheist says there are no gods or that they believe there are no gods…I am skeptical.

So you're skeptical of atheist's skepticism?...

Uh...

You say yourself that you don't believe in any gods. What do you call that?

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1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

Keep going Spade, you've only named a few religions! Plenty more to go! Tell me about how much time you've researched the above three before rejecting them.

Much More than you give me credit for! But I guess you already knew that! Thanks for asking anyways! Since it is common for an atheist to act smug, and sneer or act superior!

Quote:

There is no belief in Atheism.

I disagree with this....

Quote:

If every atheist died on Monday, and all knowledge of atheists were wiped from peoples' mind. On Tuesday morning, there would be atheists.

That is fine, That does not mean that having a belief is inferior....Or a weakness...And still helps others understand better than saying what you doubt, or do not believe is real...

I would rather go around and tell people what I do believe, not What I doubt...

Quote:

Sure, because many misconceptions exist about what an atheist is.

Who do you "Believe" is "responsible" for that "happening?''

Quote:

So atheists are in some sort of special existential crisis that theists aren't?

Nope, But theists do not call themselves a Christian based upon what they doubt, but what they believe...So do, Buddhist, Islams, Taoists, etc....

If you call yourself what you are based upon doubt, not what you actually believe...Than the reason why others do not understand you, and your belief, lack of belief...Lies squarely on the shoulders of the ones who call themselves what they do, And are, and are not...Not the other way around....

What would you say to me, if I said I was Christian, because I have a rejection of atheism?? Is this a Logical statement to you? Or, Is it more logical to say I am Christian because I "believe" this??

Quote:

Which is why I point out that the most inclusive definition of atheist is that simply "gods do not feature among the things they believe in."

Still a negative assertion....If you back math and science....then it would help you guys out a lot if you called yourselves people who "believe" in math and science...Not what you reject....As it currently stands...If God is not real, and non-existent....There is no reason for an atheist to include them in their description of what they are and are not!

If I am Irish....Is it better, and right to the point, for others, to explain to them I am Irish?? Or is it better, for me to go around, and tell others, I am not every other ethnicity...Till we come to the point that Irish is left?

If I did that, whose fault would it be, if they did not understand me??

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
Keep going Spade, you've only named a few religions! Plenty more to go! Tell me about how much time you've researched the above three before rejecting them.

Much More than you give me credit for! But I guess you already knew that! Thanks for asking anyways! Since it is common for an atheist to act smug, and sneer or act superior!

You didn't answer the question, you only state that the amount is more than I give you credit for. That's not an answer.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
There is no belief in Atheism.

I disagree with this....

Because it suits you to frame it as such.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
If every atheist died on Monday, and all knowledge of atheists were wiped from peoples' mind. On Tuesday morning, there would be atheists.

That is fine, That does not mean that having a belief is inferior....Or a weakness...And still helps others understand better than saying what you doubt, or do not believe is real...

You miss the point. The point is that a belief such as a religion could never claim this. They rely on human actors to pass on the belief and it's specifics. Atheism is a state; the product of skepticism. It is not a belief.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

I would rather go around and tell people what I do believe, not What I doubt...

So would I. However, I do have a place at the table when the topic comes up, and since the term atheist fits, I don't object to it.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
Sure, because many misconceptions exist about what an atheist is.

Who do you "Believe" is "responsible" for that "happening?''

I don't care.

I'd rather correct the misconceptions, then track down their origins. Better, I say to address them directly.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
So atheists are in some sort of special existential crisis that theists aren't?

Nope, But theists do not call themselves a Christian based upon what they doubt, but what they believe...So do, Buddhist, Islams, Taoists, etc....

If you call yourself what you are based upon doubt, not what you actually believe...Than the reason why others do not understand you, and your belief, lack of belief...Lies squarely on the shoulders of the ones who call themselves what they do, And are, and are not...Not the other way around....

This is a very dangerous argument for you to make. I'm an "atheist" solely because that's the word. You're a Christian because you profess a belief in something completely unfounded.

You want me to defend my skepticism, but wish to pretend that being skeptical of my skepticism is the same thing?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

What would you say to me, if I said I was Christian, because I have a rejection of atheism??

I'd say you're engaging in a rather silly semantic game.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
Which is why I point out that the most inclusive definition of atheist is that simply "gods do not feature among the things they believe in."

Still a negative assertion....If you back math and science....then it would help you guys out a lot if you called yourselves people who "believe" in math and science...Not what you reject....As it currently stands...If God is not real, and non-existent....There is no reason for an atheist to include them in their description of what they are and are not!

You're right in a sense. However when confined to the topic of the supernatural and gods, a word to describe a person who does not accept any of the proposed beings is linguistically useful.

Because a cup does not have water in it does not mean that it has wine in it. You're asserting that atheism is a belief. It is not.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If I am Irish....Is it better, and right to the point, for others, to explain to them I am Irish?? Or is it better, for me to go around, and tell others, I am not every other ethnicity...Till we come to the point that Irish is left?

If I did that, whose fault would it be, if they did not understand me??

Do we have a word for a person of NO ethnicity? If not, this analogy has no place here.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

Absence of evidence is evidence.

Yes, absence of evidence is indeed evidence. It is evidence that there is absence of evidence.

Do we have any evidence whatever that there are carbon based life forms on any planet circling the nearest star to Sol?

No, we do not. None whatsoever.

Is that evidence that there is no carbon based life forms on any of those planets...or is that simply evidence that there is no evidence?

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@failures art,

Quote:

@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
You're using parity, and I'm using the word "parity."

Gimme a quote of where I am using parity so that I can understand what in hell you are talking about.

Quote:
Parity - [par-i-tee]
(noun)
1. equality, as in amount, status, or character.
2. equivalence; correspondence; similarity; analogy.

Frank Apisa wrote:
I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST...and I am not an atheist.

I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS DO NOT EXIST…and I am not a theist.

You've applied the form of one statement to the other without justification. You've forced atheism into being a belief itself to fulfill the parity of your philosophy. You don't believe in gods, but you resist acknowledging that this makes you an atheist.

Obviously you are acknowledging that you cannot furnish a quote with me using "parity."

That is what I thought.

Thank you.

1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
That is why when an atheist says there are no gods or that they believe there are no gods…I am skeptical.

So you're skeptical of atheist's skepticism?...

Uh...

You say yourself that you don't believe in any gods. What do you call that?

Uhhh...saying "I do not believe in any gods" ...most definitely NOT THE SAME as saying "there are no gods."

The former is simply saying I am not willing to guess there are any gods. The latter is an assertion that there are no gods. The former leaves room for the possibility there are gods; the latter specifically denies that possibility.

Try to understand the difference...and we can discuss it.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
You're using parity, and I'm using the word "parity."

Gimme a quote of where I am using parity so that I can understand what in hell you are talking about.

Quote:
Parity - [par-i-tee]
(noun)
1. equality, as in amount, status, or character.
2. equivalence; correspondence; similarity; analogy.

Frank Apisa wrote:
I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST...and I am not an atheist.

I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS DO NOT EXIST…and I am not a theist.

You've applied the form of one statement to the other without justification. You've forced atheism into being a belief itself to fulfill the parity of your philosophy. You don't believe in gods, but you resist acknowledging that this makes you an atheist.

Obviously you are acknowledging that you cannot furnish a quote with me using "parity."

That is what I thought.

Thank you.

Frank, I never said you used the word "parity." I said you were using parity itself in your philosophical rationalizations. Reread what I said.

You've used parity repeatedly. Similarly, people who use denial, don't say "I'm in denial."

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1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
That is why when an atheist says there are no gods or that they believe there are no gods…I am skeptical.

So you're skeptical of atheist's skepticism?...

Uh...

You say yourself that you don't believe in any gods. What do you call that?

Uhhh...saying "I do not believe in any gods" ...most definitely NOT THE SAME as saying "there are no gods."

You said you were skeptical of BOTH of those statements. Read your own words above, Frank.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The former is simply saying I am not willing to guess there are any gods.

It doesn't say this. A person may not believe and find it perfectly fine to conclude that there are no gods.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The latter is an assertion that there are no gods.

It doesn't say that either. A person stating that there are no gods is only as reliable as their current information. It says nothing about how future information would effect their reasoning.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The former leaves room for the possibility there are gods; the latter specifically denies that possibility.

Nope.

Not that either are important. If evidence supporting the claims of gods were to arise that fits both internally and externally to the problem, I could be convinced in the possibility or existence of gods. No such thing has yet to occur.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Try to understand the difference...and we can discuss it.

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Two steps ahead of you.

1 Reply

@failures art,

Okay, Art...so where have I suggested parity so I can examine what the hell you are talking about?

1 Reply

What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?

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