History Lessons About Germany

McTag, You get a free pint on me! Good find on "foundling." c.i.

My Privy Council is different, when I keep my own counsel in the privy.

Well....

I've just spent quite a long time reading up what's already been written. It's an interesting thread, Walter, even if most of the responses are only tangential to the theme which you intended.

So I'll deal with distractions first.

Asherman - I greatly appreciated your well written pieces on the lessons of the 20th century. I tend to agree with your perspectives.

CI & Asherman - I'm disappointed that you are both so concerned with the Saddam/Bin Laden issue that you needed to debate it here. Had Walter wished to develop a thread on that topic, he could have done so...maybe he has.

I am also interested to read your comments, despite their being out of place. What struck me was that the USA's interest in intelligence and weapons production, to combat this gnat which has bitten its flesh, would be far better spent in alleiviating poverty and disease (especially HIV/AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa and provision of clean water more widely) which would engender in the poorer nations of the world a more positive view of the nation they now consider the "bully in the playground".

I suppose that's a European perspective, which frustrates many Americans, as it leads us to spend more on welfare for our own disadvantaged and Aid/Trade with poor nations, rather than on the means by which we (in this instance the "West" collectively) can enforce our view of acceptable behaviour in other states.

I'm happy to discuss this further, but I'd rather take it to another thread.

Back on Track!

I came to this thread to discuss the British (i.e. my own nation's) view of Germany and the German people.

I was born in 1971, so I have no memories of an age in which Britain and Germany were not united within the European Community (now the European Union or EU, c.i., of which Britain is very much part!).

Certainly when I was young I watched war films on television. The ones that actually most appeal to the wider British nature are those in which we, the underdogs, prevail through force of will and common cause against a better organised and better funded enemy.

Perhaps it was my family which gave me a different perspective from the tabloid view which is rightly criticised by the German ambassador in his piece. I saw him interviewed on television about these views and agreed with his points.

My own family have the following points of contact with German 20th Century history.

1. One grandfather fought for the British army in both World Wars. I never knew him, however.

2. One grandmother spent several months in Germany in the 1930s, staying with a professor and his family (near Bonn, I believe). They, as a family were radically but powerlessly opposed to rise in National Socialism. ("Nazi" and Germany cannot be divorced, though Fascism has existed in many places). She spoke German well enough to be mistaken as a native, which may have had some subconscious effect on my decision to take up learning the language.

3. One great-grandfather was a banker who was intimately involved in the negotiation and application of reparation payments following WWI. I am told that his view was always that the size and nature of the penalties imposed on Germany were too harsh. The depression in the Weimar Republic and consequent social and politicial unrest which drove people to look for a radical solution (Fascist or Communist) was a direct consequence of these reparations and the humiliation that the German nation suffered.

4. Myself!

OK - I've spent several months of my life in Germany. I started to learn the language at the age of 13. I continued to study it until 18, by which time I'd stayed with 2 German families (in Hamburg and Munich) and spent another 4 weeks on holidays in Germany. A couple more brief visits here and there.

At university I studied the history, warfare and international relations affecting Germany and other nations from the time of Bismark's unificiation of Germany and the Franco-Prussian war to the Cold War. This included a joint trip from my university and universities in Germany and the Netherlands to the NATO HQ in Brussels, and battlefields, museums, memorials etc. to WWI.

On leaving university, I spent 2 months living in Munich, where I took an intensive course in German, at the Goethe Institut (Germany's national institute for language and culture). I have taken in plenty of German television and journalism since then and spent about 5 weeks last year in Berlin, working.

What struck me in my search for understanding of German people and culture was the familiarity of most of the behaviour. Aside from small customs, we're much alike, the Germans and the British. Both cultures believe in inherent rationality and responsibility of the individual for their actions. In many way this (originally Protestant?) ideology is fundamentally different from that of our Southern European neighbours.

It surprised me greatly, when I was 16 and staying with the family of my second exchange partner, that her mother sat me down one evening and said to me:

"I was born in 1946. What you will have heard about the history and behaviour of the German people in the Nazi era is something which my generation and subsequent generations find difficult to understand and a difficult background to carry with us."

My response was that I understood her point and felt that my presence there was symbol enough of my acceptance thereof. My surprise was that she felt the need to say it at all.

The other (Tabloid) view

So - why do other Brits react so badly to Germany and the Germans?

"Germany lost the war but won the peace". The Wirtschaftswunder of reconstruction which took place in Germany after WWII was funded by American dollars and was created by the application of a dedicated and well-educated German workforce. The German engineers are rightly revered - they are among the best in the world.

Lawyers run the US. Accountants run the UK. Engineers run Germany.

(simplifications, but stereotypes which hold strong truths)

At the same time, Britain was facing repayment of war loans made by the USA. As there was no political motivation for the US to fund the UK - we were hardly likely to become Communist, unlike Germany, France, Italy and other Marshall Plan countries - we did not receive those bribes to stay on the side of capitalism.

This sounds like a criticism of the USA but it is not. Representative democratic governments do what is perceived to be right on behalf of their peoples.

So, the British faced the end of Empire and the relative poverty of their own nation at the same time as the re-birth of their defeated enemy's nation. A certain resentment still exists, that our love of the concepts of "fair play" and the cult of the "amateur enthusiast" have not been successful strategies in the last 50 years.

Certainly, our economy has not done so badly, but it struggles to perform against a background of poor infrastructure, low education levels of the majority and without the reality of our old dream of "health care for all, free at the point of delivery".

Brits envy Germans' efficiency and organisation, their infrastructure and industrial productivity.

Brits find Germans inherently boring, because we love the noble endeavour against the odds, which Germans (probably rightly) consider a stupid and foolhardy pursuit.

Classically, we find the Germans humourless. I think there is a point there. Irony is a very British way of looking at the world. Many Germans and Americans do not share our delight in seeing the contradictions of this world and laughing at them. Here, humour is considered one of the highest forms of our civilisation. To be called "a great wit" or a "joker" is a compliment here in Britain.

OK - enough for now.

I believe I have demonstrated that I hold no grudge against Germany and the Germans. I hope I have given some insight into the background which leads other Brits to hold such grudges. Education and lack of the need for jealousy (i.e. our own further development) are the only answers I can see.

I'll let you read what I have to say and I hope for on-topic responses.

Kitchen,

Thank you for a well written and thought out piece, it is a wonderful introduction of yourself to the A2K site. I will henceforth look to your comments as well-informed and worth reading when British/German issues arise.

The disappointment and resentment that some British and Frenchmen felt when the Marshall Plan poured millions into rebuilding the defeated enemy while leaving valued allies to finance their own reconstruction was noted at the time. I'm sure that some residue of that remains today. I think, however, that it is wrong to regard the Marshall Plan as a "bribe". The point of the Plan was that if the chaos inside the defeated countries was not addressed the Communists would exploit the situation and a hot WWIII might result. On the other hand, a strong Germany, Italy, and Japan (the principle beneficiaries of the Plan), would make be valuable allies if they recovered their strength, and their economies returned to productivity.

Even though the United States was by far the richest and most powerful economy in the world in the late 1940's, we weren't rich enough to rebuild all the damage wrought during the war. We did forgive almost the entire financial debt owed us by Britain, France, and the USSR. The USSR responded by absorbing into its empire all the territory it occupied at the end of WWII, and attempting to dominate Italy, Greece, and Turkey. It demanded co-occupation of Japan. It sponsored and encouraged the North Koreans to invade South Korea. The French returned to their attitude that they were superior to the world, and never even bothered to say thank you to either Britain or America. The troubles that the UK went through in post-war Europe are the most tragic. Britain was an essential element in winning the war, and it's people bore a heavy burden, yet even winning the war only increased the stresses on its economy and people. I'm sorry for that.

Anyway --- welcome to A2K, and I hope to see more of your comments in our discussions here.

Whew, what a discursus ! ! !

Thanks, Pete, for a very good read . . .

Thank you very much for that response, Pete!

I only can emphasise your lines.

Well, I'm a couple of years younger than you are,Pete, but I do have some connections to the UK vers visa:
I grew up in the Federal Republic, but the first couple of months as a "Citizen of the British Zone". (We actually found yesterday my wife's [children] ID-card from that time.)


From the age of 14 onweards I've been more than a dozen times for longer vacancies in Britain. There, I've met the navigator of one of the planes, which bombed my grandfather's house, killing five close relatives and the (convertied) Jewish housemaid. (My grandfather was strongly an strong anti-Nazi, lost all his political jobs in 1933.) Our families became friendly, I visited them a few times, and we re-visited.

On the other hand, a cousin of my mother was married to a 'SS and Police General'.


In my opinion, no-one can hear and learn enough of that time.

As said some sites before, I'm sure, most British know more about Germany and its history than just the Hitler period.

Thanks again, Pete, for your response!

KP, Thank you for your post on your views about the Brits and Germany, and how you came to these conclusions. Your quote, "Germany lost the war but won the peace" is somewhat similar to what we heard when Japan's economy was much stronger over a decade ago. "The US won the war, but Japan won everything else!" I'm also in agreement with your conclusions " What struck me was that the USA's interest in intelligence and weapons production, to combat this gnat which has bitten its flesh, would be far better spent in alleiviating poverty and disease (especially HIV/AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa and provision of clean water more widely) which would engender in the poorer nations of the world a more positive view of the nation they now consider the "bully in the playground"." You'll have to forgive our intrusion into your forum; emotional outbursts on this topic intrudes on many others. I promise to try my best to minimize them in the future. Getting back to subject: Did you know that the majority in the US are made up of Germans? I find great irony in this, because both world wars were fought between the US and Germany. The 1990 Census of the US population by rank shows German as number one with 23.2 percent. The next two are Irish with 15.6 percent, and English with 13.1 percent. It may have changed during the past decade, because of the influx of Asians and Mexicans. c.i.

By the by, Pete, Thames Water has a wonderful program for providing clean water resources--i used to "click for clean water" at their web site . . . but i'm a slovenly man, and haven't done so recently. I don't know if they are still doing that.

Setanta,

I just had a look at my "favourite" listing for "give water". Like you I forget about these things. Thames water reached their target and donated £200,000. Not a huge amount, but I can appreciate the shareholders would not wish them to solve the world's problems alone!

Asherman & c.i. - thanks.

As an ex-abuzzer, fairly newly converted to a2k, I know plenty of these characters in one form or another, but I'm pleased to meet you, Asherman.

Walter - I look forward to meeting you on 20/3...somehow I had the impression that you were older than me...maybe it's the mature outlook you adopt! I just checked your personal description - my hair's getting pretty thin, too!

Pete

At your birth, I had left school with my 'Abitur', done my national service .... and knew most female students in the Law faculty at Bochum university (and one or two professors, as far as I remember).

Hey this has got 2 serious for me.

Let me know when you're ready for another non sequitur.

ci I accept that pint but you must let me withdraw "halfling" as on checking I found it wasn't in my dictionary either. I must have seen it in a book by Tolkien or some such.

How about codling, changeling, herring, starveling.
Old English or Norse roots, I would guess, but I'm not an expert.

What is an expert? X, the unknown quantity, and spurt, a little drip.

Slainte

McT

Kitchenpete

I have now taken the time to read your lengthy post and despite my superficial flippancy I take a serious view on these matters.

That post and the replies were good, and I think we can all agree on most of that.
Like you I studied German with the Goethe-Institut, in Glasgow and then much later in Manchester.
I first became interested in Germany I suppose because of a bloke in my class at University, who came from Westphalia, or perhaps he sparked an interest which was always there. He was a superior type of chap, in the best sense of the word, and I liked him. I was later invited to his wedding. We were good friends. He was a fine ambassador. He had to leave the course because of a shortage of funds (not a problem in those days for British students!) and I later lost touch with him. His name was, and I hope still is, Karl-Heinz Schulte.

Like you, and like all British who grew up in the post-war years, I received a lot of negative "propaganda" for want of a better word, throught the news media and in films and comics.
Particularly in comics, aimed at the 8-12 year-old bracket, Germans were portrayed as warlike thugs, cruel and forbidding. Humourless automatons.

I do not feel particularly bitter about that, now. I think there were a lot of films made in the war years and just afterwards, which were intended to lift morale and to show how pure and good and noble we were, and the enemy as the opposite. In the poor postwar period, these films received many repeats, and also I think as a kind of gentle propaganda or conditioning to persuade us to accept our lot; food rationing and austertity programmes.
(In 1950 I was 6 years old, and food and clothing rationing went on for almost another decade, I think. Yes folks, really. You needed coupons from a ration book, as well as money, to buy clothes and food in Britain in the late 1950s)

I decided to begin learning German so as to get "inside" the stereotype and get to understand the country better. And I think I have done that, thanks to exellent teachers, and German penpals and friends I have made over the years. Walter, as some of you may know, is one of those friends
(that's why I can make jokes on his thread- sorry, Walt :wink: )

So come back on this theme if you want; we can talk some more.

Gruss

McT

Hey, Walter
What was that? All the female students and some of the staff at Bonkum University?
Really! Some people would prefer to keep things like that quiet! Draw a veil, know what I mean, say no mowah.

Well, McTag, should I have mentioned instead that I'm on nearly any video of the "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution" they filmed at demonstrations against a war in Bonn? :wink:

Oh, come on Walter, you couldn't have a war in Bonn, it's too damned expensive. Who could afford to feed the troops and pay for their lodging?

Right, we didn't have one there (has been a anti-V. demonstration).
Since our government is in Berlin, it has become cheaper in Bonn - an idea to be considered? :wink:

Well, if you really need to put on a war in the Rhineland, why not consider Coblenz, i'm sure they could use the extra cash . . .

How come they need cash in Coblenz?
They've got plenty of Mercedes-Benz
And with wine from the vine
In a stein from the Rhine
I say "Prosit!" to all of my friends

McTag, I'll be buying you that pint in person. I've already made reservations for my flight and accommodations. Will be in London from March 18 to March 24. c.i.

ci:

Sounds dangerous to me. Isn't that about the time of the Iraq attack by the US?