22
   

What is the Republican vision for this country?

 
 
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 09:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
No, my moral conviction is that people shouldn't have sex with a person of the same gender. And that people should not be forced to tolerate in their personal, social or business life that which they feel is morally offensive.

Quote:
I would argue I have far more conviction in my beliefs than you do yours; you seek to be protected from the consequences of having them. I invite others to know my beliefs, and think whatever they wish about it.


This statement is quite laughable. I have been open about my beliefs, sought no protection for them and, as a result, received repeated beatings by the majority of responders for those beliefs. You, on the other hand, espouse liberal convictions on a liberal board and then assert that your convictions are somehow stronger and more courageous than mine?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 09:13 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

No, my moral conviction is that people shouldn't have sex with a person of the same gender. And that people should not be forced to tolerate in their personal, social or business life that which they feel is morally offensive.


This is a weakness, not a strength. You seek to be protected from the things you don't like, rather than confront them openly. You really ought to be able to see that.

Quote:
Quote:
I would argue I have far more conviction in my beliefs than you do yours; you seek to be protected from the consequences of having them. I invite others to know my beliefs, and think whatever they wish about it.


This statement is quite laughable. I have been open about my beliefs, sought no protection for them and, as a result, received repeated beatings by the majority of responders for those beliefs. You, on the other hand, espouse liberal convictions on a liberal board and then assert that your convictions are somehow stronger and more courageous than mine?
[/quote]

Yes, I absolutely do. It takes no real braveness to type an opinion into an online, anonymous message board. The 'beatings' you take from people here mean nothing at all. I've taken beatings in my actual life for standing up for my rights and those of others. So, pardon me if I sort of sneer at the above comment.

I wonder if you even realize that the biggest difference between our two positions, is that there is a long history of bigots physically assaulting people who they hate, or who try and stand up to their bigotry on the behalf of people the bigots hate. You just don't see that from the other side.

You say that you 'seek no protection,' but that's absolutely what you seek. You want certain things to be illegal so that you are protected from having to deal with them - things that don't actually affect you in any way, and certainly don't hurt you. It's a weakness. I would advise you to think on this.

Cycloptichorn
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 09:17 pm
@slkshock7,
The most religiously conservative of Jews don't think women should be allowed to work in public, and some funamentalist Muslims think women should not even be allowed to go out in public. We have Jewish and Muslim citizens in this country.

Quote:
And that people should not be forced to tolerate in their personal, social or business life that which they feel is morally offensive.


By your standard, American citizens who hold such convictions have a right not to tolerate the violation of those convictions. By your standard, women should not be allowe to work in public, or even to go out in public.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 09:53 pm
@slkshock7,
I'll ask this again:

How does a gay couple's sexual behavior affect me? (or you?) Give me a concrete reason why I should care, other than "it's icky."

Do you have some kind of obsessive need to imagine what they're doing? Because I, for one, do not. Nor do I think about what straight couples do in their bedrooms.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I've taken beatings in my actual life for standing up for my rights and those of others.


You certainly spend a lot of time in this, your imaginary life. Perhaps that has something to do with the beating you've taken.The kids who spend most of their waking hours engaged in fantasy role playing games do tend to get bullied.

It's pretty funny that while you scold slkshock for claiming what you believe to be faux courage for anonymously posting contraversial opinions in an internet forum, you expect us to believe the imaginary Cyclo when he proudly, albeit anonymously, claims that he has taken actual beatings in his actual life for standing his ground in the actual world.

How are we to know if these fancy born claims of actual demonstrations of actual courage are not actually the fantasies of an anonymous, imaginary character?

Certainly they are, at best, a fragile foundation for a sneering retort.

DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Thank you for taking the time to provide an ad hominem attack rather than make a response with any actual substance.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:20 pm
@slkshock7,
Quote:
No, my moral conviction is that people shouldn't have sex with a person of the same gender. And that people should not be forced to tolerate in their personal, social or business life that which they feel is morally offensive.


I ma have missed a prior post that would answer the following question, in which case I apologize but:

How is anyone forced to tolerate homosexuals in their personal or social lives?

I understand how they might be forced to tolerate them in their business lives, but my sympathies in this regard are limited to those owners of private enterprises who may be forced by law to hire or retain homosexual employees.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
I've taken beatings in my actual life for standing up for my rights and those of others.


You certainly spend a lot of time in this, your imaginary life. Perhaps that has something to do with the beating you've taken.The kids who spend most of their waking hours engaged in fantasy role playing games do tend to get bullied.

It's pretty funny that while you scold slkshock for claiming what you believe to be faux courage for anonymously posting contraversial opinions in an internet forum, you expect us to believe the imaginary Cyclo when he proudly, albeit anonymously, claims that he has taken actual beatings in his actual life for standing his ground in the actual world.

How are we to know if these fancy born claims of actual demonstrations of actual courage are not actually the fantasies of an anonymous, imaginary character?

Certainly they are, at best, a fragile foundation for a sneering retort.


Laughing It's nothing to me, what you believe about me, one way or another, Finn. It profits me nothing to lie to any of you; there's no score kept by anyone here.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:28 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
How does a gay couple's sexual behavior affect me? (or you?) Give me a concrete reason why I should care, other than "it's icky."


How does slkshocks intolerance for a gay couple's sexual behavior affect you?

As long as his/her (what is your gender slkshock?) intolerance isn't expressed through violence or illegal behavior, why do you care?

Is it that your heart is so big and wide that you just have to shepherd all who would live in the shadows of intolerance into the light?

There seems to be all this outrage about slkshock's perceived intrusion into the sanctuary of people's bedrooms, but little thought to intruding upon the sanctuary of his/her mind.

I don't believe slkshock has tried to tell anyone how they must engage in sex, but there are plenty of people in this forum telling him how he must think.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:28 pm
@DrewDad,
How rich from you.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Au contraire.

Assuming you have shared a fantasy rather than an acutal experience then you certainly have profited.

You take great pride in your postings and in the image you project in this forum.

You no doubt congratulated yourself after posting your sneering retort to slkshock.

You, who have endured physical violence for standing up for your rights and the rights of others, are in such a morally superior position to poor slkshock and therefore have the right to sneer.

That's gold in the imaginary world of A2K.




0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:39 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well, that's a nice try to turn things around on me, but it doesn't quite work since I not trying to shut him up, nor am I intolerant of his views.

Slk definitely wants to keep homosexual people in the closet, though, and isn't above codifying it in law.

I genuinely want to know what offends him about homosexuality. He stated that he finds it immoral, so I'm wondering how he determines that.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 11:10 pm
@DrewDad,
Oh you are quite intolerant of his views. That you don't recognize it or won't admit it is immaterial to the truth.

I repeat my question, how does his intolerance affect you?

This is, I think, a perfectly valid question since you have repeatedly asked him how homosexual behavior affects him.

Interesting how you press him for an answer to your question, but dodge mine.

Unless he is the avatar for the Speaker of The House he cannot express any of his opinions as law, and so that's a red herring.

You are merely being argumentative. What difference does it make why he finds homosexuality immoral? Is there even a remote possibility that he could provide you with an answer that would persuade you to his line of thinking or even cause you to cease objecting to it?

You are asking for fodder.

I can't speak for him but let's say he tells you that he believes homosexuality is immoral because the Bible tells him so.

Are you going to tell me with a straight face that you will respond with something to the effect of:

"Oh, OK. I don't agree but I appreciate you sharing with me the source of your opinion."

Right

No, you will launch into a predictable diatribe about how the Bible is filled with all sorts of horrible admonitions for the faithful, is a mythology and how Jesus would love gays (although you question whether or not Jesus ever existed), and finish with a declaration that he remains an intolerant ass.

The supposed premise of this thread was something to the effect of:

"I just can't understand how Republicans think. Can a Republican please tell me how you see the world and how you see a better future?"

In reality it is

"Hey Republicans, come into this thread and outline your views so that we can mock them, sneer at you and tell you what a miscreant you really are.

Slkshock, and slkshock alone took the bait.

Nothing particularly offensive about the bait and switch game played. It happens in A2K all of the time. Slkshock should have know the question was not sincere.

I'm not criticizing the nature of the question, just the bullshit of the people with their lines in the water telling us that they're not trying to fish.


FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 07:08 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Conservatives, generally, believe that that providing people with opportunity is preferable to enabling them to live in the margins; dependent upon government handouts.

I would hope everyone believes that people are better off, on many levels, reaping rewards based on their talents and hard work rather than living a non-productive life of low means funded by a faceless bureaucratic machine that as easily deprives the needy as rewards those without true need.


This is an easy one to get on board with. Everyone recognizes that inequality is a natural artifact of our system. The problem comes when the distances get so great that those at the bottom have little or no opportunity to close any gaps. I don't believe that anyone wants to see a permanent underclass, and I believe everyone would like to see more upward mobility. Two questions for you, Finn.

1) Since welfare reform in the 90's, do we still have large numbers of people who are on the program long term?

2) What would be the Republican solution to the problem of poverty? What would be your preferred way to provide opportunity that isn't otherwise there?

DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 07:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Now you're more of an expert in what I think and feel than I am? And you're going to proceed from that absurdity in order to avoid admitting that you're wrong?

That's just pathetic.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 08:14 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You know Finn, that all sounds reasonable but is not supported by the truth. The welfare state, as you reference, was drastically reformed under a Democrat, Bill Clinton. No one wants to live on welfare. It is not filled with the dependent masses as you portray. Yes, there are failings in the system as there are in any large endeavor, public or private. But that does not remove the need. I was unemployed for a year and made weekly trips to the employment center. I didn't meet anyone who wouldn't rather have a job. I, and my employer, paid unemployment taxes for years so I didn't feel bad at all about taking the money. And yes I was looking for work the whole time, as most of the others there were. I agree with you about the opportunity part. Where does that opportunity come from in the GOPs platform? Where is the education plank?

This idea that there is this large welfare class out there taking advantage of the rest of us is just plain wrong. That idea usually comes from some upper class congressman that has never been close to the low end of life. I saw my senator J DeMint on tv the other day and he said exactly that. He said that 50% of the country was working and supporting the other 50%. What bullshit. What productive work does Jim DeMint do? Other that work hard to get legislation through congress that supports his constituents, the insurance companies and financial firms. This guy has lead a privileged life and has no idea what it is like to struggle or work for $8 per hour.

The only time I see the gov't impede opportunity is with the conservatives pushing laws that impose their morality on the rest of us.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  6  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 08:26 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

The supposed premise of this thread was something to the effect of:

"I just can't understand how Republicans think. Can a Republican please tell me how you see the world and how you see a better future?"


Being the originator of this thread, I disagree with your characterization of my premise. While I admit that I'm using this thread to help fully form a fuzzy idea that's been floating around in my head, I don't really need to understand how Republicans think. I have a pretty good handle on that. I'm more interested in what their goals are and whether they actually align with the actions of their party in practice. There's a difference between beliefs and goals.

Quote:
In reality it is

"Hey Republicans, come into this thread and outline your views so that we can mock them, sneer at you and tell you what a miscreant you really are.

Slkshock, and slkshock alone took the bait.

Nothing particularly offensive about the bait and switch game played. It happens in A2K all of the time. Slkshock should have know the question was not sincere.


The question was indeed sincere and I've enjoyed slkshock's participation. Yours to a lesser extent, but there's still value in it. If it turned into a bashing over views of homosexuality that's partly because those are the posts that you and silk choose to respond to. Posts that express more complex ideas and don't focus on the nature of the disagreement at all are left whistling in the wind as the two of you choose the easy bait every single time, bemoaning the traps while nibbling the cheese. So do me a favor and shelve the self-righteous indignation.

0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  6  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 11:13 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Just to set the record straight. You took the so called bait too and sneered with the best of them.
I am absolutely intolerant of his views. You could substitute many words for gay in his sentences and we'd be back a generation or two.
I won`t do the jesus thang, I`ll let an authority do it for you.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/581458_423666270996165_205344452828349_1524139_1242990889_n.jpg

His intolerance does affect everybody. It's people like him who have no shame preaching hatred, blanketed in a skewed morality, who vote and push their agenda and have conspired to keep equal rights from all your fellow citizens. People like him have been doing it for centuries and have set the human race back eons.
Live and let live. Why is that so difficult of a concept to grasp.
If he and you want to live in a narrow minded world, excellent, but at least allow others the same privilege.


Now if you really don`t want to be mocked. Stay out of bedrooms and between women`s legs. Stop all the red herrings and give us a vision of what Republicans really are capable of. Instead...
Every single discussion with you lot boils down to your morals.
Well, what about the hungry? the poor?? Jesus and the Bible says an awful lot about feeding and caring for them, yet it's easier to get blood out of a stone than get Republican support or real attention on issues like homelessness without someone blaming them for their plight.
Liberals get that their will always be inequities, but what conservatives don't get is those inequalities don't have to be so dire. Why should the poor suffer from inadequate education or health care? In the end, it costs more.. More jails, more police, more court time..
Isn't it better to invest in people rather than to deny them and then punish them for their failings in a system that doesn't give them the opportunities?
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 11:57 am
@Ceili,
Well said Ceili.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:47 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
So because I refuse to compromise my moral convictions, I am a bigot?

So, your moral conviction is that you can force your morals on others?


makes sense. The Republicans continue to be the party of growing government bureacracy as well as the party of increasing government interference in private lives.
 

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