Kerry's war record Vs Bush's

Quote:

and volunteered for Vietnam but lacked the

You might want to check the transcript of the most recent statement on this subject from GW himself. (Meet the Press last Sunday)
Q: But you never volunteered for VietNam, did you?
Answer: No, I never did.

Joe

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Bush was a cowardly person, who hid from his military responsibility. I'm not sure how much drugs played in it, but, he definitely shirked and went AWOL.

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Quote:

F-102s were never deployed to Vietnam. The aircraft was a dedicated interceptor designed for service with ADC, and was being phased out by the time Bush flew it. . Most of the interceptor duties in the US during this time were performed by F-106 and F-101B squadrons. Therfore there is no way Bush's unit could have been deployed. In addition, I find the thought of Bush "volunteering" to go to Vietnam ridiculous. You claim to have flown backseat in F-4s, so I would expect you to be more familiar with the difference between the air defence role and the tactical roles in air power.

As Reagan said, the problem with liberals is that many of the things that liberals know to be true, simply aren't.

F-102s were deployed to Southeast Asia and Europe in the Palace Chase program, which wound down just as Lt. Bush graduated from pilot training and entered F-102 training. The F-102s played no significant combat role in Vietnam, though had the Soviets given the North Vietnamese bombers, they would have been hip deep in combat. That's the problem with war, it's so unpredictable.

Bush volunteered for the Palace Chase program, but was told that he didn't have the 500 hours necessary in the F-102 to participate and that the program was no longer accepting volunteers. There are witnesses to back it up. I don't find it unusual that liberals find inconvenient truths to be ridiculous.

It is true that I have flown as a WSO in F-4s. It is also true that your point about tactical and interceptor roles in air power is incomprehensible. Interceptors are tactical aircraft. Interception is a tactical mission, a mission I rehearsed nearly every day in the F-4. What do you think those air-to-air missiles hanging on the jet were for, Mr. Airpower Genius?

Tantor
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edgarblythe wrote:

Bush was a cowardly person, who hid from his military responsibility. I'm not sure how much drugs played in it, but, he definitely shirked and went AWOL.

I see you're still manning the propaganda mill, Edgar.

If Bush shirked his military responsibility, how is it that he volunteered to join the military? How is it that he graduated from fighter pilot training, one of the most rigorous training programs in the military? Did he just shirk his way through?

It's impossible to be AWOL in the Air National Guard unless your unit is activated. So not only is the AWOL charge a lie, it's not just a bad lie, it's an impossible lie.

But that doesn't matter to lefties, does it?

Tantor
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Joe Nation wrote:

Quote:
and volunteered for Vietnam but lacked the
You might want to check the transcript of the most recent statement on this subject from GW himself. (Meet the Press last Sunday)
Q: But you never volunteered for VietNam, did you?
Answer: No, I never did.

Nevertheless, a witness says he volunteered for the Palace Chase program that would have deployed to Vietnam. He volunteered but could not make good on it because he was ineligible to go.

Tantor
Editor For Life
Conservative Propaganda
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hobitbob wrote:

Comments like this make invalidate any opinion you may have.

Comments like that make you a humorless liberal.

Tantor
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Oh yeah, an' yer just a laugh riot, Tantor

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Tantor wrote:

[
As Reagan said, the problem with liberals is that many of the things that liberals know to be true, simply aren't.

Useless ad hominem/

Quote:

F-102s were deployed to Southeast Asia and Europe in the Palace Chase program, which wound down just as Lt. Bush graduated from pilot training and entered F-102 training. The F-102s played no significant combat role in Vietnam, though had the Soviets given the North Vietnamese bombers, they would have been hip deep in combat. That's the problem with war, it's so unpredictable.

I think you are thinking of the F-106. The F-102 was obsolete by 1965. The F-106 was close to that point.

Quote:

Bush volunteered for the Palace Chase program, but was told that he didn't have the 500 hours necessary in the F-102 to participate and that the program was no longer accepting volunteers. There are witnesses to back it up. I don't find it unusual that liberals find inconvenient truths to be ridiculous.

Ad hominem aside, Bush himself stated he never volunteered for duty in Vietnam.

Quote:

It is true that I have flown as a WSO in F-4s. It is also true that your point about tactical and interceptor roles in air power is incomprehensible. Interceptors are tactical aircraft. Interception is a tactical mission, a mission I rehearsed nearly every day in the F-4. What do you think those air-to-air missiles hanging on the jet were for, Mr. Airpower Genius?

So you aren't aware that an entirely sepearte major command existed in teh 1950s-1980s that had as its mission defence of the continental US? This misson was mostly carried out by aircraft designed as interceptors, the F-106 and 102 were sterling examples, equipped with missiles to shoot down long range soviet bombers. The F-4 did not begin to assume the interceptor mission with the Air Force until the later 1970s, when the F-106 was being phased out.
BTW, are you aware that your ad hominems make you seem silly?

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"seem?"

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Some people believe in the theory (popular amongst the NCO corps in the Army) that by being loud and obnoxious they seem more authoratative. Thi is not so. Instead they display their insecureties for the world to notice. This seems to be a popular method among conservatives at other sites. The ones who consistently did so here have apparently been removed (You know who I'm thinking of, don't you?......oh "esteemed Sentat?" Wink

) At least Tantor doesn't quote Posner ad nauseum.

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He was here before the Shrub's dirty little war touting the evidence of the ubiquitous and unnamed Iraqi defector (as though none of us had ever heard of that bullsh*t salesman Chalabi), when i once questioned him on the topic, he made a snide remark about "unwashed posters," and quickly moved on to another topic, the better to bury the incident in which his crap had been questioned and he had failed to support it. You'll find, i think, that Tantor relies most heavily on the statement from authority--even the very few links i've ever known him to supply have been to such statements by others.

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Tantor, Actually, just FYI, the F-106 was essentially an up-engined F-102 with new avionics and modest structural changes. Its original designation was in fact F-102B. Designed for the Airforce's Air Defense Command specifically as a high-speed-high-altitude bomber interceptor, the F-102 was not mission-suited for deployment in Vietnam; there were no enemy bombers for it to intercept, whatever the speed or altitude. Its weaponry was internally stored, and it was configured, from targeting systems to weapons storage, to fire air-to-air missiles. Though some F-102s did see Vietnam Service, beginning in '62, and some even were shot down, a couple to ground fire and one in air-to-air combat, there was no effective role for them to play, and the last of them to see service in that theater were withdrawn sometime in December of '69, I believe. As far as I'm aware, the F-102 flew no regular combat sorties after '65, by which time it was determined, after many attempts, jury-rigs, design-defeats, and cobbled-up strap-ons there was no way to adapt the plane to a ground-attack role, though some are known to have flown escort sorties accompanying strike-fighter packages. Some 2-seat TF102s were tried in the Forward Air Control role, but were found wanting in that mission too due to unsuitable cockpit geometry; the observer's view of the ground was seriously obstructed by the wings. Besides, the plane's loiter capability sucked. Very few F-102 squadrons ever were deployed to PACAF, the Airforce designation for the Pacific Command, in which Vietnam was included.

As detailed in Post-World War II Fighters, 1945-1973, Ed. Knaack, M. S., Office of Air Force History, US Govt. Printing Office, 1986, Rev 1997:

Quote:

F-102 Operational Assignments:

Air Defense Command (ADC):

2nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Suffolk AFB, New York, 1956 to 1959. Transitioned to F-101B 1959.

5th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Suffolk AFB, New York, 1956 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

11th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Duluth, MN, 1956 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

18th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Wurtsmith AFB 1957 to 1960. Transitioned to F-101B 1960.

27th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Griffiss AFB, New York, 1957 to 1959. Transitioned to F-106A 1959.

31st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Wurtsmith AFB, Michigan, 1956 to 1957. Transferred to Alaska Air Command 1957.

37th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Ethan Allen, Vermont. 1957 to 1960. Inactivated 1960.

47th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Niagra Falls, New York, 1958 to 1960. Inactivated 1960.

48th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Langley AFB, Virginia, 1957 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

57th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Keflavik AB, Iceland, 1962 to July 1973. Transitioned to F-4C 1973. Last ADC F-102 squadron.

59th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Goose Bay, Labrador, 1960-1966. Inactivated 1966.

61st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Truax Field, Wisconsin. 1957-1960. Inactivated 1960

64th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, McChord AFB, Washington from 1957 to 1960. At Paine Field, Washington, 1960 to 1966.

71st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Selfridge AFB, Michigan, 1958 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

76th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Westover AFB, Massachusetts, 1961 to 1963. Inactivated 1963.

82nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Travis AFB, California, 1957 to 1966.

86th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Youngstown, Ohio, 1957 to 1960.

87th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Lockbourne AFB, Ohio, 1958 to 1960. Transitioned to F-101B 1960.

95th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Andrews AFB, Maryland, 1958 to 1959. Fransitioned to F-106A 1959.

317th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, McChord AFB, Washington, 1957 to 1958.

318th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, McChord AFB, Washington, 1957 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

323rd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Truax Field, Wisconsin, 1956 to 1957, E. Harmon AFB, Newfoundland 1957 to 1960. Inactivated 1960.

325th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Truax Field, Wisconsin, 1957 to 1966. Inactivated 1966

326th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Richard Gebauer AFB, Missouri, 1957 to 1967. Inactivated 1967.

327th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, George AFB, 1956 to 1958. Thule AB, Greenland, 1958 to 1960. Inactivated 1960.

329th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, George AFB, California, 1958 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

331st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Webb AFB, 1960 to 1963. Transitioned to F-104A 1963.

332nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, McGuire AFB, New Jersey, 1957 to 1959; England AFB, Louisiana 1959 to 1960; Thule AB, Greenland 1960 to 1965. Inactivated 1965.

438th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Kincheloe AFB, Michigan, 1957 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

456th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Castle AFB, California, 1958 to 1960. Transitioned to F-106A 1960.

460th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Portland, Oregon, 1958 to 1966. Inactivated 1966.

482nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Seymour Johnson AFB, North Carolina, 1956 to 1965. Inactivated 1965.

498th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Geiger Field, Washington, 1957 to 1959. Transitioned to F-106A 1959.

Pacific Air Forces (PACAF):

4th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Misawa AB, Japan, 1957 to 1965. Transitioned to F-4C/D 1965.

16th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Naha AB, Okinawa, 1959 to 1965. Transitioned to F-4D 1965.

25th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Naha AB, Okinawa.

40th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Yokota AB, Japan, 1957 to 1965. Transitioned to F-106A 1965.

64th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Clark AB, Philippines, 1966 to 1969. Inactivated 1969.

68th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Itazuke AB, Japan, 1957 to 1965. Transitioned to F-4C 1965.

82nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Naha AB, Okinawa, 1966 to May 1971. In 1968, deployed F-102As to Bien Hoa AB, Vietnam. Inactivated at Naha May 1971, last PACAF active-duty PACAF squadron.

509th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Clark AB, Philippines and Tan Son Nhut AB, Vietnam, 1959 to 1970. In 1968, detachments were sent to Da Nang AB and Tan Son Nhut AB in Vietnam and to Don Muang in Thailand. Inactivated July 1970.

Alaska Air Command (AAC):

317th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, 1958 to 1970. Inactivated 1970.

31st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, 1957 to 1958. Inactivated 1958.

US Air Force Europe (USAFE):

32nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Soesterberg AB, Netherlands, 1960 to 1969. Transitioned to F-4E 1969 and redesignated 32nd Tactical Fighter Squadron.

431st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Zaragosa AB, Spain, 1960 to 1964. Transitioned to F-4C and redesignated 431st Tactical Fighter Squadron.

496th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Hahn AB, West Germany, 1960 to 1970. Transitioned to F-4E 1970 and redesignated 496th Tactical Fighter Squadron.

497th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Torrejon AB, Spain, 1960 to 1963. Transitioned to F-4C 197e and redesignated 497th Tactical Fighter Squadron and transferred to George AFB, California.

525th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Bitburg AB, West Germany, Jan 1959 to Oct 1969. Transitioned to F-4E in 1969 and redesignated 525th Tactical Fighter Squadron.

526th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Ramstein AB, West Germany, 1960 to 1970. Transitioned to F-4E in 1970 and redesignated 526th Tactical Fighter Squadron. Last USAFE active-duty squadron to operate F-102.

Air National Guard (ANG):

102nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, New York ANG, Suffolk AP, 1972 to 1975. Transitioned to HC-130H, HH-3E and redesignated 102nd ARRS.

111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Texas ANG, Ellington ANGS, 1960 to 1975. Transitioned to F-101B 1975. This is the squadron that future President George W. Bush served with in the years 1968 to 1972.

116th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Washington ANG, Geiger Field, 1965 to 1969. Transitioned to F-101B 1969.

118th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Connecticut ANG, Bradley ANGS, 1966 to 1971. Transitioned to F-100D in 1971 and redesignated 118th Tactical Fighter Squadron.

122nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Louisiana ANG, NAS New Orleans, 1960 to 1971. Transitioned to F-100D 1971 and redesignated 122nd Tactical Fighter Squadron.

123rd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Oregon ANG, Portland IAP, 1966 to 1971. Transitioned to F-101B 1971.

132nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Maine ANG, Bangor, 1969 to 1970. Transitioned to F-101B 1970.

134th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Vermont ANG, Burlington IAP, 1965 to 1975. Transitioned to EB-57B/E in 1975 and redesignated 134th Defense Systems Evaluation Squadron.

146th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Pennsylvania ANG, Pittsburgh AP, 1961 to 1975. Transitioned to A-7D 1975 and redesignated 146th Tactical Fighter Squadron

151st Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Tennessee ANG, McGhee-Tyson AP, 1963 to 1964. Transitioned to KC-97G 1964 and redesignated 151st Air Refueling Squadron.

152nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Arizona ANG, Tucson IAP, 1966 to 1969. Transitioned to F-100C in 1969 and redesignated 152nd Tactical Fighter Training Squadron.

157th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, South Carolina ANG, MacEntire ANGB, 1963 to 1975. Transitioned to F-100C 1975 and redesignated 157th Tactical Fighter Squadron.

159th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Florida ANG, Thomas Cole Imeson AP 1960 to 1968, Jacksonville IAP 1968 to 1974. Transitioned to F-106A 1974.

175th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, South Dakota ANG, Sioux Falls MAP, 1960 to 1970. Transitioned to F-100D 1970 and redesignated 175th Tactical Fighter Squadron.

176th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Wisconsin ANG, Truax Field 1966 to 1974. Transitioned to O-2A 1974 and redesignated 176th Tactical Air Support Squadron.

178th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, North Dakota ANG, Hector Field, 1966 to 1969. Transitioned to F-101B 1969.

179th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Minnesota ANG, Duluth MAP, 1966 to 1971. Transitioned to F-101B 1971.

182nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Texas ANG, Kelly AFB, 1960 to 1969. Tranitoned to F-84F 1969, redesignated 182nd Tactical Fighter Squadron.

186th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Montana ANG, Great Falls IAP, 1966 to 1972. Transitioned to F-106A 1972.

190th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Idaho ANG, Boise Air Terminal, 1964 to 1975. Transitioned to RF-4C in 1975 and redesignated 190th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron.

194th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, California ANG, Fresno Air Terminal, 1964 to 1974. Transitioned to F-106A 1974.

196th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, California ANG, Ontario IAP, 1965 to 1975. Transitioned to O-2A 1975 and redesignated 196th Tactical Air Support Squadron (TASS). 196th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron (FIS) (F-102A, TF-102A) was co-located with the 163rd Fighter-Interceptor Group (FIG) at Ontario IAP, Ontario, California. They were re-designated as the 196th Tactical Air Support Squadron (TASS), 163rd Tactical Air Support Group (TASG).

199th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Hawaii ANG, Hickam AFB, Dec 1960 to Jan 1977. Transitioned to F-4C 1976 and redesignated 199th Tactical Fighter Squadron. Operated F-102 longer than any other unit.

Disregarding who flew what when, that is the entire operational history of the aircraft type with US Forces. As you can see, by the time of Bush's service, there were no F-102s in Vietnam, or in Pacific Command period, the F-102 was operated only by Guard units, having been fully withdrawn from Regular Active Service, and the plane was being phased out even from Guard Service.

Now, if you'd like, I can go into a whole lot of detail on Palace Alert (not "Palace Chase", which is a voluntary separation program allowing qualifying Active Duty members to transfer from Active Duty and serve out their commitment in either The Airforce Reserve or The Air National Guard), too, but all in all, that's irrelevant; Bush had neither the flying hours nor the mission certifications required to qualify for the Palace Alert program, in which Guard units were rotated into Pacific and European Commands. The program indeed was winding down and had been closed to new fighter pilot applicants by the time Bush indicated interest, though there were still slots for transport types available. The program ended entirely in '73, if I recall, but I may be off a year or two.

And knock off the Ad Hominem crap.

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Ten bucks says his reply contains a nevertheless. Laughing

Joe

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what was that they used to say about the f102 and the Goodyear Blimp. "They were evenly matched aircraft'

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Post-World War II Fighters, 1945-1973, Ed. Knaack, M. S., Office of Air Force History, US Govt. Printing Office, 1986, Rev 1997: ... That's sitting on my bedside table.

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before we get too far into aircraft design , I believe this entire issue is one of "who do you trust?"
The manipulated "pre-emptive" war was , supposedly based upon best evidence of WMD.Acceptance of all the intel data as true, Most of the Congress and most Americans were solidly behind the foreign adventure. As the data began to unravel ( for me the big unravelling came about from dOE scientists who had no atmospheric data about nucleAR ENRICHMENT programs aor beneficiation programs, since this is easily detected from aircraft monitors). The "suitcase nuke' and the vast storehouses of vX and GB gases, scenario was , as it turned out, not being developed in Iraq, or if it was, we have yet to find ANY EVIDENCE. .
Powell, in an effort to con the UN, came out with his aerial photos that have since been buried under the rug.Nobodys been dragging those Kodachromes out of the album have they?

Americans were accusing other Americans of being unpatriotic unless this
"just war" were supported blindly. As the data unraveled so did Congressional support. congress itself was duped by the administration.
NOW, my conclusions and reccomendations
CONCLUSION- bush either didnt know that this intel data was being used as the keystones of "proof" in a cynical pre-ordained pre emptive attack
on Iraq, OR HE DID KNOW and was part of the entire scam.
Screw his record and alcoholism and traffic record. he is either guilty of being grossly "out of the loop" or else hes part and leader of the pack of armchair warriors.
RECCOMENDATION-George should be honorably retired as president and he should find other opportunities in the private sector where additional lives wont be spent, and we can get this damn country back on some kind of track.

Kerry may not be the perfect candidate but, as far as we know, hes not guilty of deceit to the level that this president has demonstrated.

Jus hadda get that offn my neck before this turns into an aeronautics thread

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the issue seems to be to be evolving into something like........."it's the cover-up, stupid."

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I know that last post of mine was trivia over-reach, but then, I'm a military buff, and as far as capital hardware, unit deployments, and operational programs, the military is better at record-keeping than when it comes to individual personnel. Its always been much easier to figure out what equipment did what where when under which operation or program than to figure out just who exactly, below the ranks of Field Grade Officer, did what with it. Personnel records, particularly those of Guard and Reserve units, are notoriously dappled. That fact occasions one of the biggest headaches for The Department of Veterans Affairs. Sometimes the only "Proof" a captain or lower has of service with a particular outfit at a particular time will be something like old postal envelopes or photographs. That's why, among other reasons, every once in a while, you read about somebody, usually an enlistedman or lower-ranking officer, being awarded a medal decades after the action in which it was earned. The military keeps better records on pieces than on people. Hell, I'd already been six months with an engaged line combat unit, and over two years out of bootcamp, when my draft-notice found me. In fact, it was the sternly worded "Final Notice". I was more than willing to return Stateside and report as ordered to the Chicago Induction Center, but my CO wouldn't release me Laughing

As it turned out, it was my responsibility to notify my local draftboard that I'd enlisted. Still, it was good for a laugh.

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Which remimds me, timber, at one night in the Baltic Sea, when I was on duty as "officer of the anchor watch" in civil clothes: my reserve exercise time ended at midnight and the extension of that period hadn't reached me. (After the commanding admiral, who was on our board, gave me his word of honour, I wouldn't be procecuted for wearing unlawfully military clothes, I changed this the other day. [Our captain said the same - but in totally different words/phrases/tone :wink: ])

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That's rich, Walter ... and so typically Military Laughing

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Kerry's war record Vs Bush's

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