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Kerry's war record Vs Bush's

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 01:45 pm
Tantor\

Isn't it odd that after all this time Bush has come up with someone who allegedly saw him in Alabama. Some surprise? I wonder how much that will cost our treasury. Get real your champion is a fraud.

Me too. Take note.
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Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 02:59 pm
au1929 wrote:
Tantor\

Isn't it odd that after all this time Bush has come up with someone who allegedly saw him in Alabama. Some surprise? I wonder how much that will cost our treasury. Get real your champion is a fraud.

Me too. Take note.


The only fraud here is you and the lefty AWOL slander. There is not just one eyewitness, but three to date. Are you claiming that the military pay records are also fraudulent and the dental records as well? Your blithe dismissal of evidence that destroys your slander demonstrates how deeply committed liberals like you are committed to lying as a strategy.

Tantor
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 03:07 pm
we seem to be getting overly personal here.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 03:14 pm
I have a feeling that for the next 8 months an active Moderator will be very useful in here.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 03:22 pm
Tantor
The poor boy had to go for free dental care and get paid for it. But did he report for duty. That is up up up in the air. Remember those were the good days when Bush was an active alcoholic
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 03:34 pm
dyslexia wrote:
we seem to be getting overly personal here.


No, this is getting personal.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 03:57 pm
I had movies on the mind -- I was referring to digitally doctored photographs. And the Kerry mistress story was a product of Mr. Drudge.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 11:09 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
I had movies on the mind -- I was referring to digitally doctored photographs. And the Kerry mistress story was a product of Mr. Drudge.

Drudge reported it. The source was shown to have come from within Democrat circles. (Frankly, anybody who pays any attention to the news knows that.)

You really need to reign in your bias a bit. It's making you look decidedly less intelligent than I suspect you are.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 10:14 am
Where has the source been shown to come from Democratic circles? If Drudge believes a rumor like this is false -- why print it? It got into more media than his Internet rag -- it was on the national television news. You need to reign in your bias.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 10:27 am
LW - I thought the source was common knowledge, but I shouldn't make such assumptions:
Quote:
Aides to retired Gen. Wesley Clark had mentioned the rumor of a Kerry affair to reporters covering his campaign several weeks ago. Republicans on Capitol Hill had mentioned it to reporters as well. All suggested a national tabloid newspaper was investigating such rumors.

Drudge's account was picked up Thursday and Friday ...

Link: http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/7970061.htm
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 10:40 am
Inconclusive as to where the rumor originated. How did the Clark campaign become wary of the rumor? It now becomes nit-picking to figure out whose at fault here and does not excuse the righties from cheap, tawdry campaign tricks any more than the lefties.
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Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 12:56 pm
au1929 wrote:
Tantor
The poor boy had to go for free dental care and get paid for it. But did he report for duty. That is up up up in the air. Remember those were the good days when Bush was an active alcoholic


You don't go off duty when you go to a military dentist. Had you ever been in the military, you would know that. There are, as I have pointed out before, at least three eyewitnesses who saw him on duty at Alabama. There is also documentation that he fulfilled his service obligation. That's far more evidence than you have presented to back up your lies.

I challenge you to present any evidence to back up your blatant lie that Bush paid witnesses in Alabama. Your strategy is obviously to launch new lies as the old ones are knocked down.

Tantor
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Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 01:00 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Where has the source been shown to come from Democratic circles? If Drudge believes a rumor like this is false -- why print it? It got into more media than his Internet rag -- it was on the national television news. You need to reign in your bias.


As reported in the major media, Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark's publicist had been shopping the Kerrey intern story around for months before any of the media finally bit. Clark himself said Kerrey would "implode" over an intern problem before the story broke. May I note that Clark is a Democrat.

Are conservatives the only people who read the papers? Why do we need to keep you liberals up to date as to what your own candidates are saying?

Tantor
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Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 01:02 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Inconclusive as to where the rumor originated. How did the Clark campaign become wary of the rumor? It now becomes nit-picking to figure out whose at fault here and does not excuse the righties from cheap, tawdry campaign tricks any more than the lefties.


This is pathetic. Wes Clark's publicist spreads the intern rumor around to get an edge on Kerry and you liberals believe it's a right wing conspiracy.

Do you ever take responsibility for your own actions?

Tantor
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 01:49 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Kerry saw combat and received combat citations. Bush didn't. Both were in the military, both were awarded honorable discharges, meaning quite unambiguously that both fulfilled their obligations honorably.


That last bit is quite strikingly and surprisingly wrong.

The article below takes the time to point out this exact point ... I mean, who else got their honorable discharge?
- Bobby Rush, weeks after "he went AWOL from his unit to help found the Illinois chapter of the Black Panthers";
- a Texan who later became sherrif, who "skipped out on Army service for several months in 1976 to "patch things up with his ex-wife"';
- John Allen Muhammad (of the D.C. sniper shootings), two years after "he was charged with striking an officer, stealing a tape measure, and going AWOL" ...

In short: "Far from being a mark of exemplar service, the honorable discharge is better thought of as a standard severance, something every soldier receives unless there's significant evidence of misconduct and a commanding officer eager to brave the paperwork, panels, and disciplinary hearings required to send the soldier home with anything less."

Here's the full story:

Quote:
DAILY EXPRESS
Dubious Honor

by Josh Benson

Only at TNR Online
Post date: 02.12.04

George W. Bush has a stock response to questions surrounding his service in the Texas Air National Guard in the 1970s: "I did report," he has said. "Otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged."

But that's not quite true.

A cursory survey shows plenty of examples of servicemen with questionable--and occasionally criminal--histories who have nonetheless collected honorable discharges from the military. Far from being a mark of exemplar service, the honorable discharge is better thought of as a standard severance, something every soldier receives unless there's significant evidence of misconduct and a commanding officer eager to brave the paperwork, panels, and disciplinary hearings required to send the soldier home with anything less. Like any number of other officers, Bush could have ducked out of his service for months and still received an honorable discharge.

Going missing from military service and then squeaking out with an honorable discharge has a rich history among politicians. Current U.S. Representative Bobby Rush, a Democrat from Illinois, served in the army through the mid-1960s, becoming progressively more involved with radical antiwar groups. In 1968, after Martin Luther King's assassination, he went AWOL from his unit to help found the Illinois chapter of the Black Panthers. Weeks later, he was honorably discharged.

In 1999, a Texas sheriff up for reelection saw his candidacy unravel after local newspapers reported that, despite a subsequent honorable discharge, he'd skipped out on Army service for several months in 1976 to "patch things up with his ex-wife." (He lost badly in a primary shortly after the revelations broke.)

The list of people who've pulled the AWOL-followed-by-honorable-discharge stunt almost makes it sound chic: A co-star of "Sex and the City"; Igor Stravinsky's biographer and sidekick (later arrested for his desertion in a New Orleans brothel). A few years ago, a guest columnist for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch ruminated on going AWOL from his unit routinely with a "case of beer" to drink himself "into oblivion." "I don't know how, but I did manage to get an honorable discharge."

There's a simple reason these stories are so common: In the military, the status quo presumption is that all soldiers will receive an honorable discharge; if the government wants to change that, "it has to put together a case to overcome that presumption," according to Michael Noone, a professor of law at Catholic University and a retired Air Force judge advocate. Often, even with evidence of misconduct, the commanding officers don't want to bother with the lengthy hearings that securing a dishonorable discharge would require. "There may be lots of reasons why the government decides not to try to overcome that, from laziness to charity. Who knows?" Essentially, Noone says, "All you had to do was let the system run on by inertia, and [the soldier would] get an honorable discharge."

Retired Army Colonel Dan Smith, now a senior fellow in military affairs at the Friends Committee on National Legislation, adds that, oftentimes, even if there were serious questions surrounding a soldier's discharge, it wouldn't show up in the records; soldiers worked out informal agreements with their superiors all the time. "Back in the '70s, all you had to do was talk to your commander and that kind of thing wouldn't necessarily be noted. It would just be verbal." That kind of conversation would have been especially easy for someone with the kind of political connections of a young George W. Bush.

Perhaps more striking is how often serious questions of misconduct have been flat-out ignored. John Allen Muhammad, convicted last November for his participation in the D.C. sniper shootings, served in the Louisiana National Guard from 1978-1985, where he faced two summary courts-martial. In 1983, he was charged with striking an officer, stealing a tape measure, and going AWOL. Sentenced to seven days in the brig, he received an honorable discharge in 1985.

The point of these examples isn't to liken Bush's conduct to anyone else's. Indeed, precisely because his records remain incomplete, any comparisons to other officers are dubious at best. Rather, the point is that Bush's honorable discharge is basically meaningless as a testament to his conduct in the Guard: It would have been possible for Bush to earn an honorable discharge whether or not he skipped out on his duties.

Even if Bush did go AWOL, that doesn't disqualify him from serving as president. The country, to its credit, has always been willing to forgive the youthful transgressions of its leaders. More worrisome is that Bush refuses to own up to his conduct in the Guard, hiding instead behind an inconsequential discharge letter and pretending that it's evidence enough of his sterling record of service. "You don't just say, 'I did something' without there being verification," Bush has said. "Military doesn't work that way." Except that, sometimes it does.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 02:16 pm
TANTOR.
As usual you speak without knowing. Just to set the record straight I was in the US army before and during the Korean war. That probably at a time when you were still wiping your nose with your sleeve. I hope you have learned to use a handkerchief by this time.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 08:29 pm
If Clark is a Democrat, he voted Republican. Politics is a zoo after all. Anyone trying to make sense out of it is liable to end up in an institution.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 08:59 pm
Nimh, good evening.
I'm curious about something and I'm addressing it here not to attack your opinions or, most certainly, not you personally.
You quote at length an article in the Daily Express.
Other folks cite other papers.
Are these real newspapers? Where is the Daily Express sold on newstands? Does it have subscribers and advertisers? Or is it a "virtual" newspaper with a publisher, editor and editorial staff of one person with an agenda?
Thanks. -rjb-
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 09:45 pm
nimh, neither allegations and/or charges by thenselves, nor the mere existence of disciplinary action, prevent an Honorable Discharge. By and large, the qualifications for an honorable discharge are met by a point system; earn sufficient service points within a prescribed period of time, and barring conviction on serious charges at courts martial, the servicemember has earned and is accorded an Honorable Discharge. Discharges Other Than Honorable (the actual UCMJ - Uniform Code of Military Justice - term ... and there are several types of other-than-honorable discharges) stem typically from judicial, administrational, or medical proceedings.

Another point ... simply being AWOL is not a courts martial offense in and of itself, though it will likely result in administrational attention, and may negatively impact one's promotion track and/or may otherwise limit one's career opportunities within the military. Another minor point ... as "Leave" is granted to "On Active Duty" personnel, a Reserve member not serving in an activated reserve unit does not qualify for "Leave", and cannot therefore be Absent Without Leave. A Reserve might incur an Unauthorized Absence, which can be made up by performing the required duty or training within the same quarter and prior to the end of the fiscal year in which the training or duty component was required. Such arrangements are not at all uncommon. Odds are the pilot and/or copilot and/or flight engineer of just about any US commercial airliner is a Reserve member, and their work schedules often conflict with their training schedules. Accommodations are made most routinely. The same can be said for reserve members who happen to be equipment operators, IT folks, or medical types, such as doctors, nurses, and EMTs, among just about any other job category you can imagine. The existence of such flexibility is one of the key factors relating to Reserve Retention.

All in all, there is a surfiet of uninformed, partisan rhetoric and demonstrated absence of credible foundation to the claims of impropriety in the matter of Bush the Younger's military service. There just ain't no "There" there, and those who insist on going there are welcome to; they'll find themselves nowhere, with nothing to do and nothing to show for their efforts.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 09:51 pm
It seems as if there is more emphasis on what these two (Kerry and Bush) have done in the past rather than what they are doing now and what they plan to do for the future.
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