US workers are not competitive?

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

Did you read the rest of the article you posted?

Yes, I did. Technology manufacturing is not going to go anywhere but china for the next 20 years. By that time, China will already become twice the size of the US economy. Wage will continue to rise, and it is all the better. Good for China, and probably inflationary pressure for the US. China have already become the life line for many US companies. We better hope China don 't collapse, or else, US is not far from it. Trading have made the world a safer place by decreasing the incentive for war, and increase altruism by sheer rational self-interest. Welcome to the new world order.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent, you said:

Quote:

They (US workers)can start training, and work in sectors of the economy that is booming.

And I responded:

Quote:

.....It is difficult to know which sectors of the US economy are "booming" right now (what do you think they are?) & which sectors it would be in the interests of say, unskilled & semi-skilled workers previously employed in the vehicle manufacturing industry, to retrain into? If such training programs were available.
What would you suggest that a now unemployed worker, who previously worked in such an industry, might retrain as?

to which you responded:

Quote:

Yes! it is not hard to find out what is booming. Just look job requirements for jobs in the industry they want to go into( try indeed.com, or craigslist). Most semi-blue collar work do pay quite well, and minimum required certifications, training, and exams. Any factory worker in China would love to be in the place of an unemployed blue collar worker in the US. Why? They are willing to adopt, to work, study, and kiss ass to get a job to provide for their family. The Chinese have a go-getters attitude, because they are willing to work more, and harder to stay out of poverty. Don 't tell that American workers are special just for being born, and breathing.

I don't live in the US. Apparently you do live & work there so you are in a much better position to to answer these questions I'm asking (again):

1 .... Which sectors of the US economy are "booming" right now for unemployed unskilled & semi-skilled workers? Can you be specific in your answer, please?

2 .... (quoting from my post) What would you suggest that a now unemployed worker, who previously worked in such an industry, might retrain as? What retraining courses would you recommend they take? Once again, be specific.

Please don't write a screed in response to my post, but not answer the questions I've asked you, twice now.
It seems to me that you are arguing that US workers are somehow not "competitive" enough to see all the job opportunities that are in right front of them.
My understanding from reading & from following the news, is that there has been a severe decline in job opportunities for unskilled or semi-skilled workers in the US. (And in other areas, too ... but that wasn't what I initially asked you about)

From my perspective, you are blaming US workers for a situation which is not of their making & over which they have next to no control.

Another question to you, about China.:

3 .... What is the situation with regard to independent trade unionism in China?

I have read credible reports of growing worker dissatisfaction, as a result of poor wages & extremely poor working conditions in Chinese factories. I have read of some worker suicides because of the stress of onerous working conditions imposed on them by multi-national companies. (I'll post you links to quite a few media reports, if you like.)

I would be very interested to know how much progress has been made to protect workers' right from exploitation by employers in China. Do you foresee a time when all workers will be protected by government-endorsed unions?
And would you see that as a positive development?

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

We better hope China don 't collapse, or else, US is not far from it.

China is already in trouble with its trade deficit. They are importing more than they are exporting - to a problematic degree.

I'm curious to see if the Chinese government has any idea of how to manage itself out of the current troubles.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

TuringEquivalent wrote:
We better hope China don 't collapse, or else, US is not far from it.

China is already in trouble with its trade deficit. They are importing more than they are exporting - to a problematic degree.

I'm curious to see if the Chinese government has any idea of how to manage itself out of the current troubles.

Nah... deficit is by itself not a bad thing. South Korea, and the Asian tigers, runs years of consecutive trade deficit. The recent deficit is probably due to the disruption from the recent Chinese new year. Plus, they don 't have the same problem as Greece, since they can always devalue their currency! Popular myth is that China is a economy based in import, and export, but it is really an investment based economy based on housing construction. From the last 30 years, the average growth rate is around 10% with a lot of them at 15%. If past success in any indicator of future performance, consumption, and service will come to follow like other major coastal cities.

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

TuringEquivalent, you said:

Quote:
They (US workers)can start training, and work in sectors of the economy that is booming.

And I responded:

Quote:
.....It is difficult to know which sectors of the US economy are "booming" right now (what do you think they are?) & which sectors it would be in the interests of say, unskilled & semi-skilled workers previously employed in the vehicle manufacturing industry, to retrain into? If such training programs were available.
What would you suggest that a now unemployed worker, who previously worked in such an industry, might retrain as?

to which you responded:

Quote:
Yes! it is not hard to find out what is booming. Just look job requirements for jobs in the industry they want to go into( try indeed.com, or craigslist). Most semi-blue collar work do pay quite well, and minimum required certifications, training, and exams. Any factory worker in China would love to be in the place of an unemployed blue collar worker in the US. Why? They are willing to adopt, to work, study, and kiss ass to get a job to provide for their family. The Chinese have a go-getters attitude, because they are willing to work more, and harder to stay out of poverty. Don 't tell that American workers are special just for being born, and breathing.

I don't live in the US. Apparently you do live & work there so you are in a much better position to to answer these questions I'm asking (again):

1 .... Which sectors of the US economy are "booming" right now for unemployed unskilled & semi-skilled workers? Can you be specific in your answer, please?

2 .... (quoting from my post) What would you suggest that a now unemployed worker, who previously worked in such an industry, might retrain as? What retraining courses would you recommend they take? Once again, be specific.

Please don't write a screed in response to my post, but not answer the questions I've asked you, twice now.
It seems to me that you are arguing that US workers are somehow not "competitive" enough to see all the job opportunities that are in right front of them.
My understanding from reading & from following the news, is that there has been a severe decline in job opportunities for unskilled or semi-skilled workers in the US. (And in other areas, too ... but that wasn't what I initially asked you about)

From my perspective, you are blaming US workers for a situation which is not of their making & over which they have next to no control.

Another question to you, about China.:

3 .... What is the situation with regard to independent trade unionism in China?

I have read credible reports of growing worker dissatisfaction, as a result of poor wages & extremely poor working conditions in Chinese factories. I have read of some worker suicides because of the stress of onerous working conditions imposed on them by multi-national companies. (I'll post you links to quite a few media reports, if you like.)

I would be very interested to know how much progress has been made to protect workers' right from exploitation by employers in China. Do you foresee a time when all workers will be protected by government-endorsed unions?
And would you see that as a positive development?

I think you are a socialist, and I bet you are a European? You keep asking me what a blue collar worker should do. what should be his/her actions, and completely ignore "creative destruction" is natural part of free market economy. The very worst thing is "blaming", mainly because it leads to inflexibility. If I know your answers, then socialism would be a working system without any pricing mechanism to allocate labor, and capital. Socialism don 't work. The best thing to do for unemployed workers is to look at job requirements, read the news to look at new sectors of the economy, keep up with current events, and network with other people.

I know about China, because I worked in an investment firm. Let me tell you, Chinese worker wages are not cheap relative to other developing countries. What is cheap is when you look at the overall supply chain, and logistics. China is at the center of Japan, Korea, Taiwan, singapore, and hong kong. Of course, the manufactures are going to be near to their customers/home. That is just natural.

Unions suck by distorting the market. The market is capable of fixing the problem on its own. The wages of Chinese factory workers have been rising 25% -30% every year, and the factories are losing people to a rising service economy. When there is upward pressure, the firms are either going to innovate, or treat their workers better to prevent them from leaving. Unions is what destroy every developed countries.

Think about it this way. The average worker change 15 jobs in his life time, as oppose to being in one job for the rest of his life 500 years ago. Why? Because markets ( inherently) are flexible, and tend to allocate resource( labor) where ever it is needed.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

Quote:

I think you are a socialist

And I think you are evasive & can't back up the statements you made earlier in the thread. Wink

What does it matter if I'm a socialist, a Tory, or a Green, or politically non-aligned?
I asked you perfectly legitimate questions which apparently you can't answer.

Quote:

...and I bet you are a European?

Nope.

Australian. But why does it matter which country I live in? Confused

Quote:

The very worst thing is "blaming"...

Absolutely agree.
So why accuse US workers who have lost their jobs because multinationals have moved their businesses offshore, because labour costs are cheaper, of being uncompetitive?
Then suggest that these workers could "easily" find other jobs in "booming sectors" in the US when you can't supply any examples of them ...?

Quote:

.... because it leads to inflexibility

I could ask you what you mean by that but it appears to be rather a waste of time.

Quote:

Unions suck by distorting the market. The market is capable of fixing the problem on its own.

Really?
That's an interesting way of seeing things.
Tell that to the Chinese workers who are so dissatisfied with their poor pay & unsatisfactory working conditions.
Tell that to the appallingly over-worked Apple workers in China, some of whom suicided because of horrendous work pressure.

Apple's Chinese workers treated 'inhumanely, like machines':
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely

Quote:

...When there is upward pressure, the firms are either going to innovate, or treat their workers better to prevent them from leaving. Unions is what destroy every developed countries.

You have a touching faith in a free market with endless numbers of potential workers to exploit in the third world, compared to perfectly legitimate expectations of them in the first world countries they've deserted in the pursuit of higher profit margins. Then charge first world prices for commodities produced by workers with far worse wages & conditions .

Yes, things might well improve for workers in China, Indonesia, etc. I sincerely hope they do. But it won't be because of benevolent multinational companies, it will be through the efforts of the workers of those countries demanding much fairer deals from their employers. In other words, independent unions, if they are actually allowed to exist. And good luck to the workers who are attempting to organize, I say!

Quote:

Think about it this way. The average worker change 15 jobs in his life time, as oppose to being in one job for the rest of his life 500 years ago. Why? Because markets ( inherently) are flexible, and tend to allocate resource( labor) where ever it is needed.

OK, I thought about it.
But I fail to see what that has to do with any of the questions I asked you to respond to.
That just tells me that you have a very rosy view of of employers, management & "market forces" to act wisely & in the interests of all, simply by being "flexible".
I don't buy it.
They act in their own interests & their motive is maximum profit.
I happen to think that workers are human beings, as well as workers, & that their contribution to their employers' profits should be treated with more respect than many have received. And I happen to think the quality of their lives actually matter.

So there you go.
I'm leaving it here, TuringEquivalent.
I wish we could have had a more real give & take discussion, but that doesn't appear to have been possible.

1 Reply

@msolga,

Look here, msolga. I have feared war, wonder about world poverty, and lost countless nights of sleep. I value human life more anything. Do not doubt my sincerity.

The free market despite what you think is a pretty good thing in a unforgiving, ruthless world where the strong cannibalizes the weak for much of history. I guess the reason you don 't believe me is because you don 't have the educational background I do. What I am telling you is the whole truth, and nothing but.. The market punish wrong doers but it will take time. It values hard work, education, and investment in the future. It is the best system for good decent people, but it will **** haters, racist, and aggressors in the "long run". I can give you examples have examples of this.

If you look at the reality at the ground, the Chinese factory workers would give more than anything to work in an apple factory. They do it, because the alternative is farming, poverty, and a much harder life. If you look at the raw data, things are improving as wages increase as a result of a more diverse labor market. The rising wage is a result of increasing worker productivity, and technology. I don 't understand how you can doubt this positive trend, or personal accounts of people in China.

Quote:

And I think you are evasive & can't back up the statements you made earlier in the thread.

What does it matter if I'm a socialist, a Tory, or a Green, or politically non-aligned?
I asked you perfectly legitimate questions which apparently you can't answer.

The sad part is your don 't even know you are a socialist. How sad. In a free market economy, workers have no right to a job, or a middle class lifestyle. Making US companies only hire US people is not free market.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

Quote:

Look here, msolga. I have feared war, wonder about world poverty, lost countless nights of sleep, and tears. I value human life more anything. Do not doubt my sincerity.

Look here, TuringEquivalent ... Wink

You know as little about me as I know about you.

I have no doubt you are sincere in the views you hold.
As I am, as well.
It is just that my views are very different to yours.
That does not make my views less valid than yours.

But .... this has been a very frustrating conversation.
That is my problem with you.
You confidently state particular views, then avoid answering questions about things you've actually said.

You tell one poster that she is talking like "a 12 year old" because her views are different to yours ... or that others they are "delusional".

You dismiss my questions to you on the basis of perceiving me as a European Socialist.
Which I'm not.
But why should it matter if I was?

What can I say?

It is extremely difficult to have a give & take conversation with you.

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Quote:
Look here, msolga. I have feared war, wonder about world poverty, lost countless nights of sleep, and tears. I value human life more anything. Do not doubt my sincerity.

Look here, TuringEquivalent ...

You know as little about me as I know about you.

I have no doubt you are sincere in the views you hold.
As I am, as well.
It is just that my views are very different to yours.
That does not make my views less valid than yours.

But .... this has been a very frustrating conversation.
That is my problem with you.
You confidently state particular views, then avoid answering questions about things you've actually said.

You tell one poster that she is talking like "a 12 year old" because her views are different to yours ... or that others they are "delusional".

You dismiss my questions to you on the basis of perceiving me as a European Socialist.
Which I'm not.
But why should it matter if I was?

What can I say?

It is extremely difficult to have a give & take conversation with you.

First, I would like to know how much economic theory you know? Do you work in investment, and finance industry? What is your educational background. What degrees do you have. So far, I am making the assumption that your took one upper division macroeconomic theory course in college. If you don 't, well, you are not going to understand, and it is just going to waste time. You don 't even know what socialism is.

Quote:

You tell one poster that she is talking like "a 12 year old" because her views are different to yours ... or that others they are "delusional".

My views are informed by economic theories, research studies, and people I talked to. Your views are wrong. In the real world, I would yell at you for being a stupid ass pest in front of me. I will not respect your views, or you if what you say is wrong.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

You won't respond to questions I've ask you twice & you expect to to answer your questions? Wink

I'm not interested, thanks.
As I said, I've had enough already.
This is a waste of time.

Quote:

My views are informed by economic theories, research studies, and people I talked to. Your views are wrong. In the real world, I would yell at you for being a stupid ass pest in front of me. I will not respect your views, or you if what you say is wrong

In the real world I might consider you a pompous nincompoop!
What a cheek, given the stuff you've posted here! Razz

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

The recent deficit is probably due to the disruption from the recent Chinese new year.

how long do you think the recent Chinese new year has gone on Rolling Eyes

I'll come back some day to see if you've made an honest attempt to answer any of msolga's questions. Otherwise <shrug> I suspect things here will be the way they are for you IRL.

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

You won't respond to questions I've ask you twice & you expect to to answer your questions?

I'm not interested, thanks.
As I said, I've had enough already.
This is a waste of time.

Quote:
My views are informed by economic theories, research studies, and people I talked to. Your views are wrong. In the real world, I would yell at you for being a stupid ass pest in front of me. I will not respect your views, or you if what you say is wrong

In the real world I might consider you a pompous nincompoop!
What a cheek, given the stuff you've posted here!

You still don 't get it. I did answer you. People find jobs by look for jobs. It is general, and there are no "steps". There are books on how to look for jobs, so It is a bit meaningless to ask me, as I am no expert on it. I am giving you an economist answer, of supply, and demand in labor markets.

Well, in the real world, you are an ignorant moron, my redneck friend.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

TuringEquivalent wrote:
The recent deficit is probably due to the disruption from the recent Chinese new year.

how long do you think the recent Chinese new year has gone on

I'll come back some day to see if you've made an honest attempt to answer any of msolga's questions. Otherwise <shrug> I suspect things here will be the way they are for you IRL.

Which question? The Chinese trade deficit in February? It is not a signal in anything. The Chinese new year started in feb 23. People go back home for 10+ days, so export will drop, while import will rise because people buy foreign imports to go back home( countryside), and increased oil imports. No big deal. Why are you asking me this?

0 Replies

@TuringEquivalent,

Obviously, the a charm school dropout doesn't like debate, can't stand differing opinions, nothing but insults and ignorant statements. If you want to be an asshole, you'll be treated like one. I'm done reading your ****. You're on ignore.

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Obviously, the a charm school dropout doesn't like debate, can't stand differing opinions, nothing but insults and ignorant statements. If you want to be an asshole, you'll be treated like one. I'm done reading your ****. You're on ignore.

People who know nothing on a subject will always hide become the "I am just giving a different view". I don 't buy it. I also don 't like self-deception. You are pretty angry, so I must be doing something right. LOL

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

I thought "I am just giving a different view" was your position. People have posted links to studies on worker productivity disputing your claims and you respond with "You don't really believe that" or "that's not what I see". If US worker productivity is so poor, provide some documentation to show it. Your gut feel doesn't cut it when it doesn't match studies done by people with significant interest in the topic nor does it jive with my observations of workers on three continents. Compared to those I see in Europe and Asia, US workers work equally hard, devote more effort to improving the process by contributing ideas and are more innovative, pretty much in line with what those studies you so blithely dismiss state.

1 Reply

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

I thought "I am just giving a different view" was your position. People have posted links to studies on worker productivity disputing your claims and you respond with "You don't really believe that" or "that's not what I see". If US worker productivity is so poor, provide some documentation to show it. Your gut feel doesn't cut it when it doesn't match studies done by people with significant interest in the topic nor does it jive with my observations of workers on three continents. Compared to those I see in Europe and Asia, US workers work equally hard, devote more effort to improving the process by contributing ideas and are more innovative, pretty much in line with what those studies you so blithely dismiss state.

I am surprise you are throwing "average productivity" at me. Do you even know what that means? Obviously, you don 't.

What are you using that number to prove? If you are using that number to show that "factories should be located in the US, rather than Mexico", then no, you can 't make a case using that. Why?

You also can not prove "Americans have the highest of college grads in the world" , because it is not true.

You also cannot prove "Americans are more innovative", because you have to define what an American is. A lot of foreign companies file their patent here, and a lot of the patents are file by foreign nationals.

2 Replies

@TuringEquivalent,

Its impossible to prove anything to a brain dead asshole.

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

Its impossible to prove anything to a brain dead asshole.

Don 't really hurt, since the insult makes no sense. I already know what most of your are, rednecks.

0 Replies

@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

I am surprise you are throwing "average productivity" at me. Do you even know what that means? Obviously, you don 't.

Why are you surprised? Manufacturing plants all over the world measure units produced per worker hour. This isn't really all that hard.

TuringEquivalent wrote:

What are you using that number to prove? If you are using that number to show that "factories should be located in the US, rather than Mexico", then no, you can 't make a case using that. Why?

Because the case for moving manufacturing to Mexico is not based on worker productivity, it is based on worker costs, taxes, benefits, environmental laws, etc. Workers in Mexico are paid far less and that is why jobs move there. The same was true when textile jobs moved from the US north and mid-west to the US South. It's all about the cost of doing business, not worker productivity.

TuringEquivalent wrote:

You also can not prove "Americans have the highest of college grads in the world" , because it is not true.

Nor did I try to prove that. I haven't even looked it up.

TuringEquivalent wrote:

You also cannot prove "Americans are more innovative", because you have to define what an American is. A lot of foreign companies file their patent here, and a lot of the patents are file by foreign nationals.

My comment, based on personal experience, is that average US workers "work equally hard, devote more effort to improving the process by contributing ideas and are more innovative, pretty much in line with what those studies you so blithely dismiss state." I base that on going to manufacturing plants around the world, interviewing workers, watching them work and auditing their management. In writing this from Pune, India, I will be in Texas next month, Shanghai the month after that. I see lots of workers and those are my observations.

Which leads us back to:

engineer wrote:

If US worker productivity is so poor, provide some documentation to show it.

1 Reply

US workers are not competitive?

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