18
   

Reality from the view point of theists

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:01 pm
@joefromchicago,
Oh Joseph, you can be a nasty little person. But I forgive you; you are (sometimes) little.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:07 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Do you actually think that a theist will apply the same scrutiny to the reality of their God as you would apply to the "reality" of an object. ?


No, but why would that concern you?



If a theist will not apply the same scrutiny to the reality of their God as you would apply to the "reality" of an object, What makes you think that an atheist or an agnostic could not make the same mistake concerning what they hold to be true.
We all seem as though we could be caught up in our own beliefs about one thing or another. I wonder if we could have one-sidedness complexes, "thinking that some of the things we know about reality are absolutely true when they are not.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:19 pm
@north,
Quote:
the Sumerians didn't think of these beings as gods and neither did the Akkadians

who were present at their physical existence


I have heard a little of what you are talking about but I know very little about it. I am interested in knowing more.

Are these aliens that you are talking about? You say the Akkadians who were present at their physical existence. Are you saying they witnessed an alien invasion?

What have you found that you would like to share that makes it seem so much like reality to you? Do you have a good video link or something that I could check out?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:26 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
If a theist will not apply the same scrutiny to the reality of their God as you would apply to the "reality" of an object, What makes you think that an atheist or an agnostic could not make the same mistake concerning what they hold to be true.

I'm not sure what your point is. I would certainly never argue that atheists are less prone to error than theists. But then I really don't care what sort of mistakes people make. People fall into error all the time regardless of their religious beliefs.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:30 pm
@JLNobody,
Like the venerable tortoise who occasionally pokes its head out from its shell, JLN occasionally pokes his head out of fresco's ass. But for all your hypocrisies, JLN, I generously grant you absolution. Get ye hence, return to your fetid sepulcher and sin no more.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:53 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Quote:
the Sumerians didn't think of these beings as gods and neither did the Akkadians who were present at their physical existence
I have heard a little of what you are talking about but I know very little about it. I am interested in knowing more.
Quote:
Are these aliens that you are talking about?
yes
Quote:
You say the Akkadians who were present at their physical existence. Are you saying they witnessed an alien invasion?
no , yes , but what happened , very briefly was this; they came down on this planet looking for gold , they them selves mined this this gold in southern Africa , but the toil got to them , rebeled and found us still caveman like and geneticaly manipulated us to to be slaves to do the work of mining gold this is all written down by Ancient cuniforms and some support from the Dead Sea Scrolls
Quote:
What have you found that you would like to share that makes it seem so much like reality to you?
because it written down in cuniforms because ALL of this , comes from reading Philip Coppens , Zecharia Sitchin and the bible believe it or not has also referrence to this Ancient History as well
Quote:
Do you have a good video link or something that I could check out?
try youtube if you like , I havn't done this myself , for I can't imagine it would give justice to the subject , but it might sper you on to dig deeper why did I get into this in the first place ? because I wanted to know the truth about religion ,its essence and this whole alien mystery , it has been answered through my willingness to change my approach from mainstream common knowledge to esoteric knowledge

the mainstream just goes over and over the same old , regurgitates the same old knowledge , to gain any real insight meant that I had to dig deeper , hence I ended up into delving into Ancient History , 6000yrs back it has become very , very fascinating and enlighting , really

enjoy the exporation
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 01:59 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Do you have a good video link or something that I could check out?


north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:02 pm

oh please
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:23 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
I'm not sure what your point is. I would certainly never argue that atheists are less prone to error than theists. But then I really don't care what sort of mistakes people make. People fall into error all the time regardless of their religious beliefs.


What I am saying is that we all seem to speak in absolutes about things we all could be wrong about, at least this is how I see it.
Sure we can talk about objective reality without the presence of an observer but how is this any different than a theist talking about a God without the presence of a God that everyone can see?

Sure your example of the wall is a good one and franks examples have been very good as well.
The only thing I am saying is that the things we call reality such as the wall, Well.. they may not be what we think they are, sure they are reality to you and me but I do not know if all of this is just chemical reactions or some other types of reactions taking place.
Who knows? What we are seeing could be reactions that are taking place on such a small scale that even a mountain is trillions of times smaller than a molecule. We truly do not empirically know what reality is but you can bet we will take our theism or our naive realism and tell everyone exactly what it is .


The One-Sidedness Fallacy
Peter Suber, Philosophy Department, Earlham College

This is one of the most common and most misleading fallacies. It really ought to have a name. Some writers call it special pleading, but most writers use that term for a slightly different fallacy. Some call it confirmation bias, which is an accurate but little-used term. I like "one-sidedness fallacy" because we are accustomed to calling arguments "one-sided" if they suffer from the limitations we'll describe here.

The fallacy consists of giving reasons for your thesis without considering reasons against it, or giving reasons against an opposing view without considering reasons for it.

It's easy to say something for virtually any thesis, or to say something against it. So to hear something for or against a thesis doesn't take us very far. To be in a good position to decide the truth of a thesis, we'd like to hear (1) the best that can be said (2) on each side. We'll worry about "the best" elsewhere. This hand-out is about reaching two-sidedness.

Note that there may be far more than two sides to a complex issue. So the true alternative to one-sidedness is many-sidedness. But I will refer to the alternative as "two-sidedness" for convenience.

The one-sidedness fallacy does not make an argument invalid. It may not even make the argument unsound. The fallacy consists in persuading readers, and perhaps ourselves, that we have said enough to tilt the scale of evidence and therefore enough to justify a judgment. If we have been one-sided, though, then we haven't yet said enough to justify a judgment. The arguments on the other side may be stronger than our own. We won't know until we examine them.

So the one-sidedness fallacy doesn't mean that your premises are false or irrelevant, only that they are incomplete. You may have appealed only to relevant considerations, but you haven't yet appealed to all relevant considerations.

Some logicians say that an argument is cogent if it is valid and sound and takes all relevant considerations into account. On this usage, one-sidedness does not undermine validity or soundness, but cogency.

To become two-sided, you must first make the arguments against your own thesis explicit. Write them out as carefully as you write out the positive arguments for your thesis. But if that were all, your final case would be indecisive or inconsistent. You must take the counter-arguments into account. Demonstrate their weaknesses, admit their strengths, and revise your own argument accordingly. In practice this takes many forms. It might mean answering the counter-arguments and showing their inadequacy. It might mean retracting part of your thesis or one of your arguments for it. It might mean qualifying an unqualified or oversimplified thesis. It might mean acknowledging an exception. It might mean making a concession. It will almost always mean making a simple argument complex.

The remedy for one-sidedness is either experience or imagination, or both, and a willingness to use them. Either you've encountered arguments on the other side in your life or your reading, or you must imagine them. You know that you can imagine things that you don't believe —ghosts, gremlins, Godzilla. Do that here. Just as an exercise, imagine that you deny the thesis that you believe. What arguments can be mustered for that denial? Don't let the playfulness of this exercise mislead you about its importance. It opens your mind.

Your imagination will give you some of the arguments against your thesis, but perhaps not the best ones. These tend to come from people who are living the circumstances you can't imagine. So expect to strengthen the two-sidedness of your arguments with a lifetime of sensitive listening and observation.

Our courts avoid one-sidedness by giving trained professionals on each side of a case a serious interest in making the strongest arguments they can for their side. Each lawyer might make a one-sided argument but the judge and jury get a two-sided body of evidence and reasoning.

Even here, however, the lawyer is not only more likely to understand the facts, but to win, if she makes a two-sided argument. An argument for one side that disregarded the strong arguments on the other side leaves the jury to wonder whether you can answer them.

This leads to an important point. You might think that one-sidedness is actually desirable when your goal is winning rather than discovering a complex and nuanced truth. If this is true, then it's true of every fallacy. If winning is persuading a decision-maker, then any kind of manipulation or deception that actually works is desirable. But in fact, while winning may sometimes be served by one-sidedness, it is usually better served by two-sidedness. If your argument (say) in court is one-sided, then you are likely to be surprised by a strong counter-argument for which you are unprepared. The lesson is to cultivate two-sidedness in your thinking about any issue. Beware of any job that requires you to truncate your own understanding.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:36 pm
@joefromchicago,
What is it with you guys (you and Setanta) and verbal abuse ? Are you incapable of sustaining an argument without it. ? Wearing the psychologists hat which you kindly gave me, it would seem that you might feel intellectually threatened and are lashing out. No doubt I will get more verbal abuse for even suggesting that, so why not simply give it a rest and stick to the topic ?

BTW You did not comment my point that we are merely another sort of "frog" with a limited physiological capability of interacting with "what's out there".
For that reason what we call "reality" must always be species specific since nobody knows or may never know what "dead flies" might be "out there"

north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:40 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure what your point is. I would certainly never argue that atheists are less prone to error than theists. But then I really don't care what sort of mistakes people make. People fall into error all the time regardless of their religious beliefs.
What I am saying is that we all seem to speak in absolutes about things we all could be wrong about, at least this is how I see it. Sure we can talk about objective reality without the presence of an observer but how is this any different than a theist talking about a God without the presence of a God that everyone can see? Sure your example of the wall is a good one and franks examples have been very good as well. The only thing I am saying is that the things we call reality such as the wall, Well.. they may not be what we think they are, sure they are reality to you and me but I do not know if all of this is just chemical reactions or some other types of reactions taking place. Who knows? What we are seeing could be reactions that are taking place on such a small scale that even a mountain is trillions of times smaller than a molecule. We truly do not empirically know what reality is but you can bet we will take our theism or our naive realism and tell everyone exactly what it is . The One-Sidedness Fallacy Peter Suber, Philosophy Department, Earlham College This is one of the most common and most misleading fallacies. It really ought to have a name. Some writers call it special pleading, but most writers use that term for a slightly different fallacy. Some call it confirmation bias, which is an accurate but little-used term. I like "one-sidedness fallacy" because we are accustomed to calling arguments "one-sided" if they suffer from the limitations we'll describe here. The fallacy consists of giving reasons for your thesis without considering reasons against it, or giving reasons against an opposing view without considering reasons for it. It's easy to say something for virtually any thesis, or to say something against it. So to hear something for or against a thesis doesn't take us very far. To be in a good position to decide the truth of a thesis, we'd like to hear (1) the best that can be said (2) on each side. We'll worry about "the best" elsewhere. This hand-out is about reaching two-sidedness. Note that there may be far more than two sides to a complex issue. So the true alternative to one-sidedness is many-sidedness. But I will refer to the alternative as "two-sidedness" for convenience. The one-sidedness fallacy does not make an argument invalid. It may not even make the argument unsound. The fallacy consists in persuading readers, and perhaps ourselves, that we have said enough to tilt the scale of evidence and therefore enough to justify a judgment. If we have been one-sided, though, then we haven't yet said enough to justify a judgment. The arguments on the other side may be stronger than our own. We won't know until we examine them. So the one-sidedness fallacy doesn't mean that your premises are false or irrelevant, only that they are incomplete. You may have appealed only to relevant considerations, but you haven't yet appealed to all relevant considerations. Some logicians say that an argument is cogent if it is valid and sound and takes all relevant considerations into account. On this usage, one-sidedness does not undermine validity or soundness, but cogency. To become two-sided, you must first make the arguments against your own thesis explicit. Write them out as carefully as you write out the positive arguments for your thesis. But if that were all, your final case would be indecisive or inconsistent. You must take the counter-arguments into account. Demonstrate their weaknesses, admit their strengths, and revise your own argument accordingly. In practice this takes many forms. It might mean answering the counter-arguments and showing their inadequacy. It might mean retracting part of your thesis or one of your arguments for it. It might mean qualifying an unqualified or oversimplified thesis. It might mean acknowledging an exception. It might mean making a concession. It will almost always mean making a simple argument complex. The remedy for one-sidedness is either experience or imagination, or both, and a willingness to use them. Either you've encountered arguments on the other side in your life or your reading, or you must imagine them. You know that you can imagine things that you don't believe —ghosts, gremlins, Godzilla. Do that here. Just as an exercise, imagine that you deny the thesis that you believe. What arguments can be mustered for that denial? Don't let the playfulness of this exercise mislead you about its importance. It opens your mind. Your imagination will give you some of the arguments against your thesis, but perhaps not the best ones. These tend to come from people who are living the circumstances you can't imagine. So expect to strengthen the two-sidedness of your arguments with a lifetime of sensitive listening and observation. Our courts avoid one-sidedness by giving trained professionals on each side of a case a serious interest in making the strongest arguments they can for their side. Each lawyer might make a one-sided argument but the judge and jury get a two-sided body of evidence and reasoning. Even here, however, the lawyer is not only more likely to understand the facts, but to win, if she makes a two-sided argument. An argument for one side that disregarded the strong arguments on the other side leaves the jury to wonder whether you can answer them. This leads to an important point. You might think that one-sidedness is actually desirable when your goal is winning rather than discovering a complex and nuanced truth. If this is true, then it's true of every fallacy. If winning is persuading a decision-maker, then any kind of manipulation or deception that actually works is desirable. But in fact, while winning may sometimes be served by one-sidedness, it is usually better served by two-sidedness. If your argument (say) in court is one-sided, then you are likely to be surprised by a strong counter-argument for which you are unprepared. The lesson is to cultivate two-sidedness in your thinking about any issue. Beware of any job that requires you to truncate your own understanding.


I couldn't agree more RL

by the way the series on the History Channel " Ancient Aliens " is an excellent series
agree with them or not, it does open up your thinking to what has happened and to what is really going on in our present world
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:45 pm
@north,
I am going to research it and see if I can see what you see.

0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:45 pm
@izzythepush,
That looks like it may be a good one to see.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:48 pm
@reasoning logic,
I'm amazed you've not seen it. The film itself is 18 years old, and there's been 3 separate TV spinoffs.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:56 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
What I am saying is that we all seem to speak in absolutes about things we all could be wrong about, at least this is how I see it.

Well sure, we could all be brains in vats. That's why I'm a pragmatist when it comes to these sorts of things.

reasoning logic wrote:
Sure we can talk about objective reality without the presence of an observer but how is this any different than a theist talking about a God without the presence of a God that everyone can see?

Because there's far more reliable evidence for the existence of an objective reality than for the existence of a supernatural deity. I'm far more confident that the items in my refrigerator don't disappear as soon as I close the door than I am about the existence of a god. That's because everything we know about how the world works tells me that the continued existence of the items in my refrigerator -- even though unobserved -- is by far the best explanation for why they appear as soon as I open the door. In contrast, there's no comparable evidence that militates in favor of a conclusion that god exists. Now, could I be wrong about my refrigerator as well as about god? Sure, but I wouldn't bet on it.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 02:57 pm
@izzythepush,
I have not watched TV in years and only go to the theater 2 or 3 times per year
One might say that I am out of touch with reality.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 03:06 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
BTW You did not comment my point that we are merely another sort of "frog" with a limited physiological capability of interacting with "what's out there".

I don't consider it necessary to comment on everything you say, just as you obviously don't consider it necessary to comment on everything I say. Looking at that thread from 2007, there are some direct questions that I posed in that thread that you still haven't answered. But I'm not going to demand an immediate response. Feel free to answer those whenever you get around to it -- say, within the next five years.

As for your comment, I wouldn't say we're just another sort of frog. But even if we are, it says nothing about reality. I have no doubt that frogs interpret reality differently from us, just as it is impossible for us to know what it is like to be a bat. That doesn't mean reality is different, it just means interpretations of reality are different.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 03:07 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
I have not watched TV in years and only go to the theater 2 or 3 times per year One might say that I am out of touch with reality.
well some programs are very good their not all non-sence garbage
just pick and choose what you watch , I do
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 04:34 pm
@joefromchicago,
...but if all we have are interpretations of reality, how do we know what that "reality" consists of ? In particular, if theists interpret their own existence as evidence for the reality of "God", and atheists do not,can a decision ever be made about that aspect of "reality" ?. Surely the only decision about interpretations depends on whether there is a functional "pay-off" for a particular interpretation.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2012 05:08 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Sure we can talk about objective reality without the presence of an observer but how is this any different than a theist talking about a God without the presence of a God that everyone can see?


Because there's far more reliable evidence for the existence of an objective reality than for the existence of a supernatural deity.


If Objective reality is relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind <objective reality> <our reveries … are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world.

Just how do you test something that is independent of the mind? If reality is suppose to be independent of the mind how are you going to know? do you have some other way of detecting reality that does not include a brain in the test. When you exam the results the brain will be making the final decision.
 

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