Reality from the view point of theists

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

(EDIT: Note that the issue is always selective, for if not, what shall we include in that issue ?....the state of the mortar...the ants nest on the second row of bricks....etc,etc)

So what? That has no bearing on the reality of the wall -- or the mortar or the ants, for that matter.

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

Frank has established that it is logically necessary that reality IS, not matter what may be its form(s). But I intuit that its form(s) necessitate observers in order for it to express its infinite variability.

Not sure how to respond to this, JL. It is, in my opinion, analogous to the reaction I have when a theist tells me he/she "intuits" that "existence" necessitates a GOD.

I do not see how "existence" necessitates a GOD...nor have I heard a compelling or persuasive argument that it does. By the same token, I do not see how REALITY necessitates observers. I am certainly willing to listen to arguments that it does, but I have not heard any so far that rise to compelling or persuasive. I will keep an open mind...and listen to any others you want to offer.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

. Our different interpretations of the wall, therefore, doesn't obviate the fact that we both agree on the reality of the wall.

This is true but without our observation of the wall who's to say that the wall could exist? How do you know empirically that things can exist without an observer? Would it be the same way a theist knows that God exist?

Quote:

your example of different perceptions of the Koran doesn't say anything about reality -- nobody is saying that the Koran is an illusion -- it just says something about sociology or psychology.

Is it a reality, "that most of the religious people in the US are Christians? If this is so what does this say about the reality of believing a religion?

Do you think that if you were born in Afghanistan, your reality about religion would be a Christian reality?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

This is true but without our observation of the wall who's to say that the wall could exist?

How the wall could exist? I think you're confused. Why couldn't a hypothetical wall exist without an observer?

reasoning logic wrote:

How do you know empirically that things can exist without an observer? Would it be the same way a theist knows that God exist?

I don't know how theists "know" that god exists. I'm pretty confident, however, that things exist without an observer, even though I can't "prove" their existence without observing them. To imagine that things don't exist without being observed is to imagine that the world blinks in an out of existence depending on whether it's being observed or not. That's the conundrum faced by Berkeley, who had to invent an all-observant deity to explain why the world persists despite our inability to keep it under constant observation.

reasoning logic wrote:

Is it a reality, "that most of the religious people in the US are Christians? If this is so what does this say about the reality of believing a religion?

You're mixing terms. The "reality" that I'm talking about is the tangible or perceivable reality of an object, not the reality of a belief, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

reasoning logic wrote:

Do you think that if you were born in Afghanistan, your reality about religion would be a Christian reality?

I have no idea what you mean.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

I have no idea what you mean.

You're not the only one.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Reality is our perception of it, and in this the idealists were correct...

Am I supposed to accept this because YOU say it is so...because some GOD says it is so...or because "the idealists" say it was so?

NO!!! You are legally entitled and morally obligated to figure things out for your self...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido, you wrote:

Quote:

Reality is our perception of it, and in this the idealists were correct...

I asked: "Am I supposed to accept this because YOU say it is so...because some GOD says it is so...or because "the idealists" say it was so?"

To which you responded:

Quote:

NO!!! You are legally entitled and morally obligated to figure things out for your self...

Okay...so let's see if I can figure this out:

It is my opinion that your statement: "Reality is our perception of it, and in the the idealists were correct"...

...is nothing more than a self-serving, unsubstantiated assertion on your part that may or may not be correct.

As such, it has no value at all in this discussion...particularly presented the way it was.

I am trying to "figure out for myself" why you presented it--but nothing reasonable is occurring to me. If you want to comment on that aspect, I would appreciate it.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

Why couldn't a hypothetical wall exist without an observer?

It requires the mind's eye to observe it.

Quote:

I don't know how theists "know" that god exists.

That is a tricky question to an atheist or an agnostic but someone who believes in God should know what criteria they use "to know God exist. People like you and I can only assume that a God does not exist because a God has never taken the time out to show itself to us.

Quote:

I'm pretty confident, however, that things exist without an observer, even though I can't "prove" their existence without observing them.

That is the approach I use as well in my everyday life. It seems to be the only sane approach that is required to navigate through what we call reality.

Quote:

You're mixing terms. The "reality" that I'm talking about is the tangible or perceivable reality of an object, not the reality of a belief, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Are you suggesting that God is not real to a theist but only a figment of their imagination, or just something they make up "like a belief that is not real?

Quote:

Do you think that if you were born in Afghanistan, your reality about religion would be a Christian reality?

I have no idea what you mean.

What is the likelihood of someone born in Afghanistan having a christian belief system. A Christian's belief "Christ" is part of some peoples reality just as a wall is to me and you.
It seems that your environment or "what you are exposed to, shapes how you believe and what you call real.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

It requires the mind's eye to observe it.

What does that even mean?

reasoning logic wrote:

Are you suggesting that God is not real to a theist but only a figment of their imagination, or just something they make up "like a belief that is not real?

If a theist believes that god is real because she says "I can feel god's presence," then the theist is simply using a metaphor to describe the strength of her belief. On the other hand, if a theist believes that god is real because she says "I had coffee with god just this morning," then the theist is actually using the term "real" to describe god as a tangible object. The latter statement is not metaphorical, but then that doesn't mean that it's accurate.

reasoning logic wrote:

What is the likelihood of someone born in Afghanistan having a christian belief system. A Christian's belief "Christ" is part of some peoples reality just as a wall is to me and you.

No it isn't. You're mixing terms again. A Christian's belief is just that -- a belief. A belief is only "real" in a metaphorical sense. A wall is "real" in a perceptual sense. Frankly, I have no interest in discussing "reality" as a metaphor.

reasoning logic wrote:

It seems that your environment or "what you are exposed to, shapes how you believe and what you call real.

I find that highly unlikely.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

No it isn't. You're mixing terms again. A Christian's belief is just that -- a belief. A belief is only "real" in a metaphorical sense. A wall is "real" in a perceptual sense. Frankly, I have no interest in discussing "reality" as a metaphor.

Ok Ok I get your point "You do not think that God is real, "But I bet some Christians do.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

It requires the mind's eye to observe it.

What does that even mean?

You are able to imagine hypotheticals using your mind. "You see with your minds eye the things that you can think up. You can think of being at a picnic with a friend and if you try hard, you may be very descriptive in describing what your minds eye can see.

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Well Fresco, it appears that Joe is on our side. I KNEW we were right

Wrong, as usual. You need to sit back and wait for fresco to tell you what your position is.

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Ok Ok I get your point "You do not think that God is real, "But I bet some Christians do.

And their claims should be subject to the same tests to determine their accuracy as we would subject any claims regarding the "reality" of an object.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
I have no idea what you mean.

You're not the only one.

Common hazard in these discussions.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

their claims should be subject to the same tests to determine their accuracy as we would subject any claims regarding the "reality" of an object.

Do you actually think that a theist will apply the same scrutiny to the reality of their God as you would apply to the "reality" of an object. ?

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the thing is people that if you back to the Sumer Ancient time this is where ALL this religion and the reality of the gods started , like it or not and none of you are talking about it

neither the religious are , of what ever denomination nor the so called " realists "

from his book " The Stairway to Heaven " by Zecharia Sitchin

quote from pg # 117;

" Let it be clarified here that neither the Akkadians nor the Sumerians had called these visitors to Earth gods. It is through later paganism that the notion od divine beings or gods has filtered into our language and thinking. When we employ the term here , it is only because of its general acceptance and usage that we do so. "

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Do you actually think that a theist will apply the same scrutiny to the reality of their God as you would apply to the "reality" of an object. ?

No, but why would that concern you?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
their claims should be subject to the same tests to determine their accuracy as we would subject any claims regarding the "reality" of an object.

Do you actually think that a theist will apply the same scrutiny to the reality of their God as you would apply to the "reality" of an object. ?

they don't RL because they don't know the History of the essence of what they believe in

the Sumerians didn't think of these beings as gods and neither did the Akkadians

who were present at their physical existence

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further

it matters what Ancient History has to say because it happened , it is written down in cuniforms

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@joefromchicago,

Oh Joseph, you can be a nasty little person. But I forgive you; you are (sometimes) little.

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Reality from the view point of theists

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