Fertility treatments and overpopulation

@patiodog,

I don't think it's intrinsically good, no, but that was in reference to ehBeth's post where the "I want" seemed to be the whole badness of their reasoning.

I think there are good reasons to have a kid.

And I do agree with engineer's point that your cut-off seems kind of arbitrary. (You seem at least minimally fine with people who have kids without medical intervention.)

1 Reply

@patiodog,

patiodog wrote:

Quote:
Similar to telling women who have radical mastectomies to get counseling instead of reconstructive surgery.

Anyone who has had a body part removed should have access to counselling whether they're going to have reconstructive surgery or not.

My point is that due to a medical condition, a woman is now faced with possible elective surgery that does not have a health benefit. If she wants this elective process, who am I to tell her that it is selfish, a waste of money and medical resources, etc. It seems like I should just wish her the best and go back to my own business.

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@engineer,

I believe the key elements of her message addressed 'research funds' and 'medical resources', not the funds people spend on said procedures, which is an entirely different can of worms.

The money and research that has gone into bringing a new life into the world could have been re-routed to curing a disease that is actively taking a life out of the world.

I'm with ehBeth on this one. And before the judgements start flying around, my wife and I are infertile. We discovered this after trying for quite awhile. We're of the 'opinion' that it makes more sense for us to take care of a child that needs a home rather than blow a huge wad of cash and going through the painful process of trying to conceive a child. Having a child is extremely important to us. Insisting that it's done our way to the detriment of other opportunities out there is not. Ergo we choose adoption.

That's just a personal choice of ours. Everyone is entitled to theirs.

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@ehBeth,

Exactly and no one is saying you are a bad person for your decision - it is a personal decision - it wasn't right for you, but for some one else it is. You have no desire to give birth. So how can you possibility understand some one that has a huge desire to give birth?

And not everyone has such a bleak feeling of the world and future - I look at what potential my children can have/have positive influence they will have on the world.

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@engineer,

The research funding doesn't just come from those it helps, and I think it is a waste.

In Canada there was an effort to make funding for the treatments come from government health plans. I understand that has happened in other countries as well.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

I obviously can't speak for the pdog, but I did think I'd have children, til I really stopped to think about it sometime in my early 20's.

I realized that I had no desire to give birth, but that I had a strong interest in being a positive influence on young people. I adore being with babies, children and young people of all ages but I reasoned the "want" away.

But... why?

The thought isn't really completed in terms of this discussion, I don't think.

You reasoned the "want" away, but why was that a good/ noble/ necessary thing for you to do?

I can reason the "want" away when it comes to my own life, too, probably, but why?

The why is kind of important.

1 Reply

@engineer,

And my point, beyond to gently prod at a benign false dilemma, was as I said: a reconstructed breast is not a human being.

Quote:

It seems like I should just wish her the best and go back to my own business.

True enough, and so I do, in life, with the babies and, should it come up, the boobies.

Of course, no one's asking me to fawn over the boobs...

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@sozobe,

Quote:

I think there are good reasons to have a kid.

I've sort of been waiting to hear some -- which I know sounds like a pugnacious challenge, but I don't mean it as one.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

When it comes to human lives, I don't think "I want a baby" is a reasonable reason to pursue having a child by way of fertility treatment.

How many affected children have you asked about that? How many of them tell you that they regret having been born because they've been born for the wrong reason, or conceived with the wrong pharmaceuticals?

ehBeth wrote:

Among other things, I think it is an enormous waste of medical resources as well as a waste of research funds.

Evidently the consumers of those resources don't consider it a waste to pay for them. And the producers of those resources don't consider it a waste to do the research, given what consumers pay. So if it's a waste for the world as a whole, who else gets harmed?

ehBeth wrote:

I understand it's not a popular position.

Not a problem. I argue plenty of unpopular positions myself, most of them out of conviction.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

I realized that I had no desire to give birth, but that I had a strong interest in being a positive influence on young people. I adore being with babies, children and young people of all ages but I reasoned the "want" away.

In other words, you did what you did because you wanted to. And you didn't do what you didn't do because you didn't want to. Fine with me, but how does it fit your view that doing things because you want to is wrong when it comes to human lives?

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@patiodog,

Yeah, I thought that might happen.

Definitely hard to articulate.

Why do you have dogs?

Is rescuing them from death the only reason?

Are any of the remaining reasons good? Which of them, if so?

What I can say for sure is that I am very happy I had a kid, think it was the right thing to do in our situation, and am very glad the actual pregnancy/childbirth part of it was relatively straightforward. (Though, like ehBeth, I really didn't want to actually give birth and my expectations were met with a really bad birthing experience. Still, I conceived naturally and the birth was unpleasant but also ended with a healthy mother and baby.)

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@sozobe,

Why did I stop to think about it? Because that's what I do.

An ex and I were discussing our future life together. Education, marriage, where we'd live, if we'd have children, all the standard stuff. After one of our dreamy conversations about the future, the whole "why have a baby" question kept poking at me until I had to stop and really think about it. We discussed it more over the years. I think we both eventually figured out that what mattered to us was parenting, not the source of the children.

I do sometimes wonder if he was just going along with it, but I'll never 100% know. I do know that he eventually went on to be a tremendous stepfather to two awesome men, and is now stepparenting two more great kids. He's a wonderful father, and doesn't seem to regret not having been a birth parent.

I think it's important to think about why we want what we want.

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@ehBeth,

Wait though that's not what I was asking "why" about.

I stopped and thought the heck about it before I had a kid. (Oh did I. Whew. You know me, I'm sure you can imagine.)

I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it some more. And talked to E.G., and thought about it, and....

Eventually we decided.

Actually, we didn't. I think the universe granted me that extra year between stopping birth control pills and conceiving so I could finally get more comfortable with the idea. 'Cause I'd "decide" and then undecide. And so on. By the time the stripe appeared on the early pregnancy test, I was actually comfortable with the idea.

I was asking why you "reasoned the want away." Why reasoning the want away -- not thinking about it, reasoning it away -- was something that was good/ noble/ necessary.

What you seem to be saying now is that you decided that you didn't actually want to have a baby. That you wanted to parent, not have your own children.

So, as Thomas says, that's fine -- it still comes down to what you want.

1 Reply

@patiodog,

patiodog wrote:

But to me, personally, part of the decision-making process in having a child would be, "What sort of world would I be bringing that child into, and what effect would that have on it?"

Well yes, that's the question to ask yourself, no need to single out couples
who seek fertility treatment. Actually, every parent should ask themselves this question, however, since none of us are able to foresee the future, you only can make a decision for yourself and your own surrounding what a child would have to endure living with you.

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@ehBeth,

So its the whole birthing vs not birthing sort of thing. To me giving birth was a natural way to have a child. Easier and less expensive and less of a hassle than adopting. My husband didn't already have a child/ren so it made sense.

Now if we were unable to have a child naturally, I'd probably try fertility first, but only after getting all the info - just because of all the problems I've heard of adopting. Am I against adoption -not by a long shot. We have actually discussed adopting a third child - if we had the financial means, we would adopt a third child -- one that wasn't a baby, but a bit older.

But again this is a personal decision - and to me neither is better - it is what is better for the couple.

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@CalamityJane,

And some of us actually aren't all doom and gloom where they believe they are bringing their child into a good situation. It is true - why we decided to have children when we did.

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@Questioner,

Questioner,
You should know that fertility treatments are not covered by any insurance and it can be extremely expensive, depending on the procedure, or did you think the couples should spend their money on curing other diseases instead of opting for IVF?

We have adopted as well, that's not the point. The point is that couples who choose to have a child should have the right to use any means available to them, period.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

In other words, you did what you did because you wanted to.

that's not correct. I wanted to have children, expected to have children, planned to have children. I thought about it, and made a decision not to do what I wanted.

it's not a tremendous analogy but : I might want chocolate, I might have chocolate in the house and have people around me who are encouraging me to have chocolate. I can think about it and decide not to have any chocolate. That doesn't mean I didn't want chocolate or don't want chocolate. It doesn't mean there are no positives to chocolate.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

So its the whole birthing vs not birthing sort of thing.

It's not that I didn't want to give birth, I just couldn't rationalize it.

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@CalamityJane,

Neither. I was clarifying for engineer what I believed ehBeth's point to be. The medical establishments and corporations that have sunk so much money into finding ways to help cure infertility could just as easily have gone to easing the pain and suffering of already existing children with various diseases.

And I didn't say that adoption was or wasn't the point. Might be good for you to re-read what I said as our end statements are exactly the same.

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Fertility treatments and overpopulation

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