Fertility treatments and overpopulation

@engineer,

Quote:

Whether you get the child at step 2 or step 5 doesn't matter. If bringing a child into the world is a selfish act it is equally selfish at step 5 as at step 2. I'd say the selfish folks are those who bring a child into the world with absolutely no thought, rather than those who put so much consideration into their decision.

See, that's exactly what grabs me about it, I think. Nature deals a setback and forces one to reconsider, and the decision is still to have a baby.

Quote:

If you think people pursue fertility treatments in the cavalier way you suggest, maybe you should sit down with those friends of yours and talk to them about how it really works.

I'm sorry if being flippant isn't generally understood. It puzzles some of the folks here in the midwest; I wonder if it's a regional thing. I get that it's a big deal, I get that it's not something people decide to do overnight, I get that it's a process. It is also my habit to periodically diminish most human undertakings for purposes of rhetoric, humor, or just plain obtuseness.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

Just as an aside, is there a direct comparison between this discussion and the abortion debate? How to those who insist that someone who is unwilling to have a child or unable to support one have one anyway compare to those who believe that someone who is both willing and able to support one should not conceive?

Um, if that's going to come front and center, I will go on record as being fiendishly pro-choice. Moreover, the protestors in my town don't seem to understand that other services are offered at the clinic, and will harass women going in for contraception, health exams, and the like.

Which is a bit of sideline, but in the same ballpark, I suppose.

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@patiodog,

I tell you what's wrong with your way of thinking, patiodog: you claim that
fertility treatments - successful ones we should say as the majority of them aren't - contribute to the overpopulation.

You are discriminating here against a very small group of couples who under normal circumstances aren't able to conceive. Most of these couples a will have one child only, if they're successful.

Now you have not mentioned couples with five and six children who have difficulties taking care of all these kids financially and emotionally. Why don't you include these parents?

Why haven't you mentioned anything about educating young girls about
pregnancy, contraceptives etc.?

No, instead you are ranting about couples who seek fertility treatment in order to have a child.

Do you see how wrong you way of thinking is in terms of where overpopulation should be curbed?

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

Izzie wrote:

patiodog wrote:

Infertility isn't a problem that adversely affects a person's health.

I totally disagree.

Having fertility problems affect's folks mental health which can have a direct effect on physical well being.

that goes to my opinion that counselling would be more helpful than fertility treatment

That's so wrong on so many levels, I don't even want to comment any further!

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

Similar to telling women who have radical mastectomies to get counseling instead of reconstructive surgery.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Fertility treatments are necessary in the idustrialized world because fertility is declining.

Why does that matter?

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@engineer,

Yes, that's a great comparison, engineer!

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@engineer,

engineer wrote:

1) Do we want children?

<snip>

maybe you should sit down with those friends of yours and talk to them about how it really works.

In the discussions I've had with people - it comes down to "want", usually one person with a big case of "I want".

That's why the real-life discussions usually don't last long. I don't sugarcoat my reaction to that "I want", or "Steve wants", or "Debbie wants".

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

In the discussions I've had with people - it comes down to "want", usually one person with a big case of "I want".

And what's wrong with that? What's the harm?

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

But a whole lot of things come down to that. From "I want a house" (sure, I could live under a bridge somewhere, it would be difficult but possible, but I don't want to) to "I want to eat well," (sure, I could subsist on macaroni and cheese, but I don't want to) all the way to "I want to live" (sure, I could die, but I don't want to right now).

"I want" doesn't seem like an intrinsically bad reason to me.

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@engineer,

I think counselling should definitely take place first, and continue afterward.

The reconstructive surgery here would be considered elective unless there are reports to support it as medically and/or psychologically required. There are definitely circumstances when reconstructive surgery will get coverage for medical reasons, but it's not a given.

Everything about fertility treatment is elective.

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@CalamityJane,

Quote:

I tell you what's wrong with your way of thinking, patiodog: you claim that
fertility treatments - successful ones we should say as the majority of them aren't - contribute to the overpopulation.

We've already addressed that that's not what I think, and I'm sorry so many are reading this title so literally. I apologize, I generally don't even think about the title of the thread once I've opened it and read the contents.

Quote:

You are discriminating here against a very small group of couples who under normal circumstances aren't able to conceive. Most of these couples a will have one child only, if they're successful.

I am in no position to behave discriminatorially, and if I was I would in no way impede their way to move forward.

Quote:

Now you have not mentioned couples with five and six children who have difficulties taking care of all these kids financially and emotionally. Why don't you include these parents?

Because that's not what I was ruminating about when I started the thread. Why? Do you have a notion of how to address that problem, if at all?

Quote:

Why haven't you mentioned anything about educating young girls about
pregnancy, contraceptives etc.?

I mentioned it briefly and obliquely, once. Again, it's not what I had on my mind.

Quote:

No, instead you are ranting about couples who seek fertility treatment in order to have a child.

Yes, I am, which was sort of the point of the thread. I wanted to feel the notion out, try and distinguish between where I feel emotionally about it vs. thinking rationally about it (not always the easiest thing to figure about one's own brain), because it's something that's going on around me in my life at the present moment, and, as with any couple having a baby, it's generally assumed that everybody is ecstatic for them, and I do what I can to feign some degree of interest when it comes up, because I actually do have some idea of what is socially acceptable, believe it or not.

Quote:

Do you see how wrong you way of thinking is in terms of where overpopulation should be curbed?

Again, just to be absolutely clear: I don't think that if everybody who has been trying to conceive and can't suddenly says, "Oh, well, never mind," that we'd drop to a sustainable number of people and everything would be golden. But to me, personally, part of the decision-making process in having a child would be, "What sort of world would I be bringing that child into, and what effect would that have on it?"

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@Thomas,

When it comes to human lives, I don't think "I want a baby" is a reasonable reason to pursue having a child by way of fertility treatment.

Among other things, I think it is an enormous waste of medical resources as well as a waste of research funds.

I understand it's not a popular position.

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@engineer,

Quote:

Similar to telling women who have radical mastectomies to get counseling instead of reconstructive surgery.

Anyone who has had a body part removed should have access to counselling whether they're going to have reconstructive surgery or not.

FWIW, I know three women who have had complete mastectomies and none of them have elected to have any reconstruction done, but somehow I don't think that has any bearing.

Either way, a reconstructed breast is not a human being. (I hope. How weird would that be?)

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@sozobe,

Quote:

But a whole lot of things come down to that. From "I want a house" (sure, I could live under a bridge somewhere, it would be difficult but possible, but I don't want to) to "I want to eat well," (sure, I could subsist on macaroni and cheese, but I don't want to) all the way to "I want to live" (sure, I could die, but I don't want to right now).

"I want" doesn't seem like an intrinsically bad reason to me.

See, I get this, which is why I wanted to air this out.

Still, it doesn't seem like an intrinsically good reason, either.

1 Reply

@patiodog,

I'd guess you never wanted to have children --- it is difficult to understand unless you have been in that situation and it is unfair to judge.

I know people that have had naturally (I think it is) either 8 or 9 kids. Now I think that is a bit extreme personally and aside from the overpopulation thing - and aside from the financial side of things - how they heck are they able to physically care for all these kids, give them the individual attention they need?

That is my personal opinion, but the kids seems happy, the family seems happy (although mom always looks tired) - they are clothed and fed - not my position to make judgement on them - although I certainly wouldn't want the situation.

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@ehBeth,

But those funds come from those it helps and they earned that money and should be able to spend it how they choose. We're not cartoon communists saying "ah comrade, you must spend your money to help others instead of pursuing your desires!" How is spending $5K on a fertility treatment more selfish than spending $5K on a motorcycle? You earned it, spend it how you want.

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@patiodog,

I do get this:

patiodog wrote:

Yes, I am, which was sort of the point of the thread. I wanted to feel the notion out, try and distinguish between where I feel emotionally about it vs. thinking rationally about it (not always the easiest thing to figure about one's own brain)

And I understand both the impulse and your frustration about how that's received.

I've tried some of those here that went south pretty quickly.

edit: Just saw your "I get" in turn, wasn't parroting you!

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To not quite weigh in since I see both or more sides of this, I'm one of the people thumbing up what I think are good arguments from either, or more, points of views.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

I'd guess you never wanted to have children -

I obviously can't speak for the pdog, but I did think I'd have children, til I really stopped to think about it sometime in my early 20's.

I realized that I had no desire to give birth, but that I had a strong interest in being a positive influence on young people. I adore being with babies, children and young people of all ages but I reasoned the "want" away.

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Fertility treatments and overpopulation

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