15
   

The Fat Trap

 
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2012 04:55 pm
@Setanta,
This looks really interesting and something I've suspected for a long time. I assume we will be able to watch in the US on-line as I was just able to watch the promo.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2012 05:16 pm
@ossobuco,
I'll give a denouement on this, as a post script, if only for myself. A while after I hired him and he worked out terrifically, I quit because I thought I wanted to be in another field of medicine. I was at the nearby laundramat one lunch hour (long story) and read the want ads, only thing to read in the whole place, and saw an ad for a hematology tech in a nearby part of LA. So, I went for an interview, liked the lab owner - we talked politics on the interview and an hours worth of else - I quit, with lots of sturm and drang, big boss showing up for a long talk, me changing my mind twice and then going to the other lab. . . which turned out to be fun but not rigorous, and I applied back again to the first place. When I left, the hefty guy I hired ran that lab well, then quit himself at some point, probably for similar reasons re working his buns off, and went to a new lab. In the meantime, after rehiring, I handled a research lab, in my way, for maybe seven years.

Shortly after my cohort moved to the new lab, the m.d. and other initials who started the new lab called me, and I was second on board, after the chub that I'd hired and liked. Not that it was all on him, as the owner knew me for years, but not inconsequential.

That lab grew into a major lab nationally and internationally, and neither of us stayed for that, me leaving after four years for a whole 'nother escapade. I'd be quite well off now, but never mind.

Lesson - be careful who you shun.

edited, to make more sense
jespah
 
  4  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2012 05:21 pm
@ossobuco,
Lots of good, interesting comments here.

Thomas, I hear ya on invisibility. When I was really seriously networking, people enjoyed hearing what I had to say when I was at my lightest. So long as younger, cuter, thinner women weren't around.

I know I've posted this before but I recall walking through Greenwich Village with RP, we had been dating, I dunno, a month? Some idiot was doing street standup, hat out, trying to get money. We walked by. He yelled, "How'd ya like to have to feed her?" Much laughter.

I weighed about the same then as I do now, although I looked bigger (I work out a lot more than I did then). That was January of 1989 and I still have not forgotten it, or how it made me feel.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2012 05:48 pm
@jespah,
Listening. I remember how I was raised with very us and them stuff.

I think that is the battleground, what e're the topic. Shattering borders.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2012 07:08 am
@Green Witch,
Yeah, if you go back to the The Nature of Things web site at some point, they should have the entire program on streaming feed. David Suzuki is a wonderful presenter for such programs, and a scientist with solid credentials. His daughter is following in his footsteps.
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2012 08:39 am
@Setanta,
Yup. They already uploaded it and I can watch on-line. Thanks again.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2012 12:09 pm
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

......................
Nasty ****, those ads are, for people who really could use some time not being beaten down.
..................
I swear, nastiness to the overweight is one of the last bastions of allegedly acceptable prejudice, that it's somehow fun and hip and amusing to be mean to people.

The ads are about public policy and social costs - everything else that's been tried over the last several decades has failed, and policymakers (and actuaries!) finally got desperate; I really doubt anyone involved with that ad deliberately set out to beat down anybody! But solely blaming the individual for eating whatever made him so fat - and that's a subtle point - does overlap with public policy, esp. when costs are involved:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/01/philosophy?fsrc=nlw%7Cnewe%7C1-13-2012%7Cnew_on_the_economist
[quote]....some brain modules don't communicate well and may conflict with each other. One module in your brain wants to be fit; a different one wants to drink that soda. Taking as a given for the moment that we have a public interest in people being fit, it may make sense to have social institutions work collectively with the modules in everyone's brains that want to be fit, rather than depending on each individual to resolve the contest between their get-fit module and their drink-soda module. ......... But like psychoanalysis, neuroscience's challenge to the idea that individuals are coherent subjects who make their decisions consciously and can be held responsible for them tends to shift the way one thinks about society and politics. In many cases, it's not only unfair to hold individuals accountable for the actions of the modules in their heads, it's also completely counterproductive, while solutions pursued at either a neuropsychological-pharmacological level or at a social level would be the effective ones.[/quote]
jespah
 
  3  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:16 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

...The ads are about public policy and social costs - everything else that's been tried over the last several decades has failed, and policymakers (and actuaries!) finally got desperate; I really doubt anyone involved with that ad deliberately set out to beat down anybody! But solely blaming the individual for eating whatever made him so fat - and that's a subtle point - does overlap with public policy, esp. when costs are involved:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/01/philosophy?fsrc=nlw%7Cnewe%7C1-13-2012%7Cnew_on_the_economist
[quote]....some brain modules don't communicate well and may conflict with each other. One module in your brain wants to be fit; a different one wants to drink that soda. Taking as a given for the moment that we have a public interest in people being fit, it may make sense to have social institutions work collectively with the modules in everyone's brains that want to be fit, rather than depending on each individual to resolve the contest between their get-fit module and their drink-soda module. ......... But like psychoanalysis, neuroscience's challenge to the idea that individuals are coherent subjects who make their decisions consciously and can be held responsible for them tends to shift the way one thinks about society and politics. In many cases, it's not only unfair to hold individuals accountable for the actions of the modules in their heads, it's also completely counterproductive, while solutions pursued at either a neuropsychological-pharmacological level or at a social level would be the effective ones.


The whole thing smells to me like something that was passed by committee and thrown out there without actually testing it with its target audience. 'Cause I have a lot of trouble believing that we here on A2K are the only people who found that ad offensive.

And to what end? The information about portion sizes is good - why marry it to dragging someone down? The information could be gotten across with a plain grey background and avoided all of this nonsense (and I recognize that the nonsense is put in there in an effort to get people to talk, blog, etc.).

On SparkPeople, they do two things that could probably work on much grander public health scale. One is to compare similar-sounding dishes at various chain restaurants. The grilled chicken sandwich at Wendy's, say, versus McDonald's (or whoever sells them; I eat at neither place). They compare calories, fat, fiber, sodium, protein, carbs and I believe a few other things. Often similar-sounding dishes are very different - showing, in part, how poorly (and often deceptively) menu items are described, but also that there's a lot of stuff hidden inside what we are being sold. I can see doing this not only for resto stuff but also for supermarket stuff. A lot of people, I am sure, would be surprised to learn that pork is a pretty damned lean meat (I don't eat it due to religious reasons).

Another thing they do is to show what 300, 350, 400 calories really looks like, by making some comparisons. See: http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource/nutrition_articles.asp?id=1260 This is a comparison of resto meals, mainly, versus eating at home, and the differences are rather stark ones. Here's one such comparison for a 300 calorie fruit and bagel meal -
The first one is the homemade meal, and the second one is 3/4 of a blueberry muffin from Starbucks: http://www.sparkpeople.com/email/blasts/Bagel-Muffin.jpg

While I recognize that providing calorie counts did not seem to work (and I maintain that that experiment probably should've gone on longer than it has), comparisons might help.

Another idea would be to go after food preparers and manufacturers. Go into the damned thesaurus and pull out every single word that could possibly be associated with diet or health and regulate it so that manufacturers can't attach it to less than healthy products. Case in point - on Facebook the other day, I was served with an ad for "wholesome breakfast options". It was from McDonald's. It included the Egg McMuffin, which has American cheese and sausage, among other artery-destroying crap. See http://www.sparkpeople.com/calories-in.asp?food=egg+mcmuffin for the calories, etc. in there. And here's some info on the ingredients: http://www.snack-girl.com/snack/mcdonalds-egg-mcmuffin-healthy/ Plus plenty of people don't eat one for breakfast. They eat two.

Wholesome, my ass.
High Seas
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 05:39 pm
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

The whole thing smells to me like something that was passed by committee and thrown out there without actually testing it with its target audience. ......

That at any rate is wrong - this advertising campaign has already cost New York City several millions, mostly spent on reactions by focus groups. Focus groups included moderately and severely overweight and otherwise impaired persons of all ages and races. The poster on the previous page was deemed the least offensive; here are two more:
http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4f0cb544eab8eac642000005-590/slide-01.jpg
http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4f0cb53669beddb24f00002f-590/slide-21.jpg

Fries, cheeseburgers, sodas is what's pictured so far, we may expect other foods in future. Your idea of educating the public on comparative calories sounds extremely logical, but has it worked for already educated persons? Has it worked for anyone you, personally, know?

What results does this Spark site you link get with that system? If their result are every bit as disappointing as everyone else's on the calorie-counting front, how can you, in good conscience, recommend that their approach be extended more broadly at public expense?

Which brings me to the point, expense. NYC has spent billions to match federal Medicare/Medicaid monies for equipping hospitals, emergency rooms, ambulances etc with new wheelchairs, operating tables, new chairs and beds, new doors even (extra-wide) in efforts to accommodate our increasing numbers of obese persons - and that's all before accounting for actual treatment of their illnesses. Do you really believe these people need education on calorie-counting? I'm no biochemist but I do know economics and think the problem isn't they're all lazy liars who can't tell kilocal from kiloton. Addictions have their own rules, but even if these people are not all food addicts they may well suffer from what's known in the trade as "hyperbolic discounting". That's why people prefer to pay $70/month for a gym membership instead of choosing to pay $10/session. then end up going for only 4 sessions. There's a very famous study on that - which also applies to diets >
http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~sdellavi/wp/gymemp05-04-20.pdf
> but the point is, forget the math, you've tried the lots of small meals daily, exercising (btw weight-lifting isn't know for promoting sylph-like figures), calorie-counting, portion control - didn't work, time to try something else! Good luck.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  8  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 06:26 pm
Er, thanks.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 06:29 pm
@jespah,
Wish I had better news Smile

Have a good evening, will be going to Berlin later tonight and don't know when I'll be back, so no more posters from New York for a while.
Rockhead
 
  8  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 06:32 pm
@High Seas,
watch that door on your way out, helen...

I think ugly attitudes are so deeply ingrained that some folks don't even realize that they are being rude.

or not...

Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 06:58 pm
@Rockhead,
I was looking for an emoticon that expressed "cluelessness" but I'll just thumb up to your post, Rocky.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  4  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 07:46 pm
I swore I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but I can't let these last few posts go without response.

Those "public service" posters are complete lies for the fast food industry and an insult to good common sense nutrition. I am disgusted that these are being proposed as an effort to reduce obesity and increase nutritional health. Taxpayer money is being wasted on this sham.

It is not okay to just reduce the portion size of the same crappy chemical-laden empty calories that are in fast foods. That is a cop out for the fast food industry and is how Americans started the growing addiction to fast food and obesity. The fast food industry increased their profits by increasing portion sizes with unhealthy fillers, sweeteners, grains, fats, synthetic chemicals and other crap. That stuff is still in the food, no matter the portion size.

The example analysis that Jespah gave from the Sparks People website is exactly the informative images the American public needs to see more of. You don't need to just cut down on portion size. You need to replace the processed junk food with wholesome nutritious food that is mostly vegetables and fruits. That comparison dramatically shows people what the difference is. They learn that to be at a more healthy weight, they can fill up on a larger portion of quality, nutritious and less caloric food rather than what they get from the drive-thru window's smaller portion sizes of junk food.


ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:45 pm
@Butrflynet,
Slight tangent, but, hey. We could use cheering up.

In the SF Chronicle today, there is an article about a new breed of fast food places, some of which sound good to me from here.
There's no damned reason that fast food can't actually be healthy, in my opinion, or least much healthier than it is.

So, not to go too far off the thread topic, which is the way metabolism works re diets per the NYTimes article, I'll just give the Chronicle link for anyone interested.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/01/12/DD921MN98R.DTL
CalamityJane
 
  4  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:55 pm
@ossobuco,
Yeah, out here we have some healthier fast food places - I love "Rubio's" - they have great fish tacos, also the vegetable wraps are a good alternative, or Mexican fast food like "Roberto's" where a carne asada is meat, avocado, spices, diced tomatoes all wrapped in a corn tortilla.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  3  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 11:03 pm
http://lifehacker.com/5873922/10-stubborn-body-myths-that-just-wont-die-debunked-by-science
Quote:
Myth: Calories Counting Is All That Matters for Weight Management and Health

We might like to believe that calories-in-equals-calories-out is a sufficient weight loss theory, but that means we have to accept our bodies are pretty simple. While consuming fewer calories can certainly have an impact, not all foods have the same impact once we stuff them down our throats. If you want to think about it in a very simple way, consider the difference between a candy bar and a cucumber (in equal caloric amounts). They taste different, they consist of different nutritional elements, and are not the same thing. It doesn't make sense that they'd be used by your body in the same way.

The problem with the idea of calories being the only necessary metric is that we think of a calorie as a physical thing. Calories are just a means of measuring heat, and they weren't initially a term used in reference to food. A calorie, according to Wikipedia, "approximates the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree Celsius." Basically, calories are a measurement and not something your body uses for fuel. What your body does use is what it finds in the foods and liquids it digests. If you put crap in your body, you're not going to be better off just because of a low-calorie rating.

Many people contest this idea because of nutrition Professor Mark Haub's twinkie diet, in which he ate a low calorie diet that consisted of about two-thirds junk food, but there are a few things to note here. This is the sole study of one person and is not indicative everyone. Even Haub questions his own findings:

What does that mean? Does that mean I'm healthier? Or does it mean how we define health from a biology standpoint, that we're missing something?

Haub also reduced his intake by about 800 calories per day, which is a very significant amount. There is no question that our caloric intake plays a role in the way we store and lose fat (as this study in the New England Journal of Medicine shows), but simply counting calories does not provide the full pictures. The way your body processes sugar is an excellent example of how different foods yield different results. Dr. Michael Eades points to two studies—the Ancel Keys starvation experiment and the John Yudkin study—that each tested two low-calorie diets with different nutrient compositions. The Keys study had higher amounts of carbohydrates and lower amounts of fat. The Yudkin study had the opposite. The results of the studies, however, yielded very different results. The Yudkin study ended with healthy men whereas the Keys study did not.

Futhermore, registered dietitian Kari Hartel outlines how different nutrients are processed by your body. For example, she notes that "[f]iber isn't fully digested by your body, so this nutrient contributes health benefits without adding significant calories to your diet." Additionally, "[y]our body burns more calories digesting and metabolizing protein than it does digesting other nutrients. Protein slows the time it takes for food to move from your stomach to your intestines, helping you feel full longer."

While the idea that health can come from eating a magic number of calories each day is nice, the reality is that foods and your body are more complex. Although a significant calorie reduction is an effective means of losing weight, it is not the only factor. Your current weight, the weight you want to lose, the nutritional balance of your diet, the calories you burn and muscles you build through exercise, and the amount of time you're sedentary each day are all elements that play into your health and potential for fat loss. Cutting significant amounts of calories may be a significant short-term weight management strategy, but paying attention to other factors will yield better results for your overall health.


I stopped counting calories a long time ago. It always seemed like too much math for not a lot of gain. And the whole search for how many calories a bagel has - what size? or a piece of pizza - if you add all the toppings, which ones and how much or little - it's hardly exact.
Every couple of months I follow the Allergy Free Diet. Basically, I don't eat eggs, beans, pork, anything white - sugar, milk, flour.. Actually I stop eating all grain based carbs. Nuts and fish are on the list, but I'm actually deadly allergic so I have no problem dropping them from my diet.
I mostly eat a ton of raw veggies, fruit and chicken and a lot of oils and seeds. It's hard to do this for very long, but I drop weight like nobodies business and I feel awesome. Then I start eating normally and generally feel like crap and start putting the weight back on. I've never been a size two or bigger than a size 12, however I don't want to get any bigger.. This works for me.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 06:35 am
I'm glad you've found what works for you. Smile

And that's what this is kinda all about -- that it's not simplistic and it's not generic and it's not a case where everyone gets the exact same results every single time from the exact same things.

And even if it's possible for us all to get the exact same results, etc., the truth is, we kinda don't know what exact is. Even identical twins aren't identical, so how can anyone imagine that my results will be identical to Ceili's and Green Witch's and osso's, etc., even though we're all women? We were born on different days, in different places. Some of us may be different in the birth order, with different-sized parents, eating different things for breakfast, not only today but also on June 17th, 1999 and anything else that could possibly be a variable.

Some of these variables, to be sure, are more significant than others. I doubt that my June 17th breakfast of even 2011 is that significant any more, but I bet my genetics still matter, as do those of my parents. Our height differentials probably matter. Our ages probably matter. Our fitness levels - ya gotta figure those matter as well.
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 09:31 am
@jespah,
Yes, no one size fits all. Our metabolisms are as different as our individual selves. Celli feels great eating a lot of raw veggies, I get headaches and feel starved no matter how many I push in. I need to eat animal protein to feel balanced and it has never put weight on me. My healthy weight husband can eat all the foods that make most people fat and he has only put on about 5 lbs in 20 years, and he can lose it by skipping desert. I think science has yet to figure this metabolism thing, and in the meantime we just have to do what is manageable and sensible based on our own understanding of our bodies.
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 09:39 am
@Green Witch,
Yeah, my husband loses weight on the no-carb diet. Since I rarely eat carbs, it doesn't do a thing for me. If I eat salads and proteins, I lose. But I eat very healthily anyway, so for me to lose big, I have to add in exercise at 3+ hours a week. I walk the dog every day and 3 x a week do a one hour yoga, and 2 x a week do a one hour zumba. Sometimes I'll add in 45 min on the circuit.
0 Replies
 
 

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