Criticism of Feminism

@djjd62,

How could you ? ! ? ! ?

Next you'll suggest that all of us are entitled to equal treatment. Where will it all end ? ! ? ! ?

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@Krumple,

What a load of poop. Men get child care leave, rather than maternity leave. Both men and women can get leave to care for seriously ill dependents, whether children or the elderly. That such legislation is unequal, or ineffective is not evidence that the concept of equality is flawed, it is only evidence that the legislative efforts to achieve equality are flawed.

Your theses about inequality are also unsubstantiated. Certainly you have a right to express an opinion. Just as certainly, others are entitled to call bullshit.

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@failures art,

failures art wrote:

To Gloria Allred, if you're not a feminist, you're a bigot

gloria allred is to the feminist movement what al sharpton is to black causes

a shill who's all hot air and no substance, the promotion of self is more important than the cause, both groups should denounce them loudly and often

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@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

failures art wrote:
Over much of my life I've been comfortable with the term "feminist," but I feel that perhaps it requires an update

well we could just call them women

or better yet just call everyone human and proclaim equality for all

That's basically my point. The real goal is equal human rights.

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@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

failures art wrote:
To Gloria Allred, if you're not a feminist, you're a bigot

gloria allred is to the feminist movement what al sharpton is to black causes

a shill who's all hot air and no substance, the promotion of self is more important than the cause, both groups should denounce them loudly and often

Sharpton is a nice guy. Did you mean Jesse Jackson?

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@failures art,

i'm pretty neutral about jesse, but the best thing that could happen to rev al is a fatal heart attack, hopefully by the time i'm done typing this

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@failures art,

failures art wrote:

I think sozobe put it pretty well when she shared how she feels/thinks multiple things simultaneously. Now soz is a woman. Would we respond to a man saying that feminists often rush to victims status too fast if a man had said it?

Holy misreading Batman. That "often" changes the meaning kind of a lot (and I didn't say "often.")

You seem to have pretty much completely missed my larger point too, which is that "feminism" is not necessarily this nice finite quantifiable thing.

My point is that the concept is huge and hard to quantify. There are feminists who I agree with wholly, and feminists I heartily disagree with.

It's big enough that you really have to come up with some sort of a definition of what you mean by "feminism" for it to be discussed in any meaningful way. And right now you're kind of all over the map.

Meanwhile I think djjd's mention of Al Sharpton is instructive.

There has definitely been racism in the past. Does the fact that there is less racism now, or that some black people are quick to hoist the victim flag, mean that there is no racism now?

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

failures art wrote:
I think sozobe put it pretty well when she shared how she feels/thinks multiple things simultaneously. Now soz is a woman. Would we respond to a man saying that feminists often rush to victims status too fast if a man had said it?

Holy misreading Batman. That "often" changes the meaning kind of a lot (and I didn't say "often.")

My apologies. I should not have put "often." I assumed as much based on the idea that I thought you must observe this frequent enough for it to be worth noting. The "often" wasn't the focus of my statement, and I didn't mean to complicate that.

sozobe wrote:

You seem to have pretty much completely missed my larger point too, which is that "feminism" is not necessarily this nice finite quantifiable thing.

My point is that the concept is huge and hard to quantify. There are feminists who I agree with wholly, and feminists I heartily disagree with.

I'm not missing this point. I am very aware that feminism is diverse and it has notable different ideas/voices. You and Olga have mentions that you have some feminists you agree with and those you don't. That to me is quite literally proof of my point: you have criticisms of femknism. At no point did I say that criticisms of feminism would only be from non-feminists. I'm asking about the assumptions we make about the critics themselves.

Being that feminism is diverse in it's philosophy, in your own readings, has any feminist writer spoke about gender issues unrelated to women? Here's what I'm getting at: If the goal is equal rights, but no sect/portion/part/wave feminism only addresses issues of women, then feminism is incapable of achieving equal rights. It will go far, but ultimately fall short. Worse, it could deny gender issues exist outside of female ones.

sozobe wrote:

It's big enough that you really have to come up with some sort of a definition of what you mean by "feminism" for it to be discussed in any meaningful way. And right now you're kind of all over the map.

I'm looking for any definition. I want to explore as many of the available ones as possible. This is why I brought the topic to A2K. I'm questioning if feminism is actually capable of achieving equal rights for the genders, and because o my own limited experience, I'm looking for feedback from others.

So, for instance, if part of any definition of feminism includes a goal for equality, wouldn't a reason to dislike a particular feminist writing be due to a disbelief or lack of confidence that the ideas expressed would achieve that goal? The writers you have disliked, what stood out about them? Same for the writers you liked.

sozobe wrote:

Meanwhile I think djjd's mention of Al Sharpton is instructive.

There has definitely been racism in the past. Does the fact that there is less racism now, or that some black people are quick to hoist the victim flag, mean that there is no racism now?

I have not at any point in this thread suggested that sexism towards women doesn't exist. If by this analogy, you mean to inform me of this, don't waste our time. Sexism against women is real and a present day problem. I'm simply adding that sexism is a problem face by men as well and sexism itself is an obstacle for equal rights.

Borrowing the race analogy we are using, while racism has been horrible against blacks, it is not something that black people alone endure or are innocent of. Certainly racist ideas are expressed by non-white people. My Japanese grandmother says many sick things. Racism is real despite things getting better and the same goes for sexism, but if we define racism carelessly as a black problem, we'd belittle the struggle of Hispanic, Asian, and white people as well. We've made great strides in fighting sexism for women, have we fully acknowledged that men's issues even exist? I wonder if gender roles for women are being broken down, while men's are still being reinforced. Shouldn't feminism address this as well? If you believe it has, or can direct me to writers whonhabe wrote about this, I'm very interested.

It's one reason I really liked the Penis Mom story. She saw gender roles being thrown out by a woman, and fought for equality by demanding equal responsibility and expectation on the heavy lifting. To me, that's a criticism of feminism that is constructive and interesting.

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She released another video. It's a collection of quotes from many mainstream and prominent feminists over the decades. She made the video as a response to the criticism (similar criticisms made by Olga in this thread) that she doesn't understand feminism.

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@failures art,

Sure, that will work. *sarcasm*

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@failures art,

awesome how she sucks and blows

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@failures art,

I haven't read alot of feminist literature, although I've always been appalled at and vehemenly opposed to oppression of any sort directed at anyone, but listening to this video I was thinking, 'What the heck?' Yeah, I can't even begin to agree with any of the authors she cited. I kept thinking to myself, 'Have any of these women ever given birth to a son?'
You know people are people. The fit and able should help and take care of the vulnerable and infirm, irrespective of gender. I was just reading about the thirty year old bride who died in the Italian cruise liner that sank-her new husband was helping his 74 year old father get to shore. If I'd been on that boat with my son and daughter and my father - yeah- I'd have looked after my father first, knowing my daughter is fit and strong and would have a better chance on her own than he would.
Yeah, feminist 'literature' almost always leaves me thinking that they're describing some other woman's experience. And maybe they are and maybe that's necessary - but I can't relate to it at all. I have never felt oppressed by men in my lifetime. Maybe I've just been lucky. Actually - I'm usually more wary of other women than men. Sometime's women are there own worst enemies.
(Note - I'm talking about during my lifetime in the United States and the United Kingdom- I am well aware that around the world there are many women who are oppressed and still treated as chattel and YES - I am against that. But no - I can't at all relate to the inherent evilness of men **** that seems always to be a component of feminist 'literature').

You know, it's like the other day I came home from work and my son says, 'Mom, did you read about the American marines who peed on the dead taliban-ese guys?'
And I said, 'Yeah, but the fact that they're American has nothing to do with what they did- they're idiots- that'd be like saying, 'Did you read about the black soldiers who peed on the dead bodies of their enemies, as if the fact that they're black is what influenced their decision to treat nothing as sacred and act like idiots.'
Men who mistreat women are violent and cowardly - but it's not because they're men - it's because they're violent and cowardly.
And the fact that there's less of it now speaks to that. It's the culture that has changed and has influenced behaviors - it's not that the blank slate little baby boys being born today are different from their male forebearers. It's how they are being acculterated that has changed.
If men were innately incapable of compassion and nurturing and kindness - acculteration of not - we wouldn't see the changes we are seeing.

And he woman who chopped off her husband's penis is mentally ill and anyone who can laugh at that and try to find justification for that sort of behavior is just as sick in my book.
She didn't do it because she's a woman - she did it because she's a cowardly spiteful, twisted person.
I also agreed with penis mom- totally.
That principal should be ashamed of herself. I wouldn't want her influencing my daughter.

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@failures art,

This joker takes any woman who has made what she thinks is a statement she can "deconstruct" to the detriment of the reputation of feminists, and labels them feminists. Hillary Clinton a feminist? Not on the planet i live on. Her definition of who is a feminist is so broad as to bascically embrace anyone she thinks she can bring into disrepute for what they've said. This just underlines what i and Soz have said in this thread, that a working definition of feminism is needed. One hasn't been provided, and the author just dodges the issue because he, like the woman in the video, finds it easier to carp if there isn't such a definition of feminist, if true, polemical feminists are not identified. I find if kind of loony, too. So, for example, if one wanted something to rant about with regard to feminism, and while identifying a polemical feminist, then i would suggest Susan Brownmiller. In Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape she articulates a premis to the effect that men use, and all men benefit from the use of rape as a means of perpetuating male dominance by keeping all women in a state of fear.

But neither this woman in the video nor the author of this thread want to be that specific, nor to address polemical feminism. It is easier, after all, to simply brand any woman who has made a statement which one considers indefensible and label her a feminist, and thereby bring into disrepute the concept of feminism. The author of this thread couldn't even be bothered to do his own leg work in that effort--he got the anti-feminist videographer here to do that for him.

Let's have a definition of feminism, and a clear-cut criterion for identifying who the feminists are who can be said to speak for feministm. Otherwise, this is just a bait thread.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Let's have a definition of feminism, and a clear-cut criterion for identifying who the feminists are who can be said to speak for feministm. Otherwise, this is just a bait thread.

SO because even those who call themselves feminists can not agree on what feminism is we according to Set cant talk about feminist. Great.

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@hawkeye10,

Idiot. Do you even understand what i am saying when i speak of polemical feminists? Do you allege, for example, that any whack job, religious right holy roller who calls for holy war against Muslims speaks for all Christians and all conservatives? Upon what basis do you allege that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is ipso facto a reliable spokesman for feminism? That's a pretty big straw man, there, Chicken Little. Will you be able to knock it down without assistance?

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@failures art,

Quote:

She

Who is "she"?

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

awesome how she sucks and blows

Hehe. Yes, she should have edited out the huffing and puffing. Unnecessary. What she was reading carries with it enough to let a person digest, we don't need to observe her reaction.

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@aidan,

Quote:

And I said, 'Yeah, but the fact that they're American has nothing to do with what they did- they're idiots- ... It's the culture that has changed and has influenced behaviors - it's not that the blank slate little baby boys being born today are different from their male forebearers. It's how they are being acculterated that has changed.

WRT the marines, Aidan, it is the culture that hasn't changed that causes this and much worse behavior from US military personnel.

What do you expect from a culture that has basically laughed at soldiers raping, torturing, gunning down women and children, napalming villages, saturation bombing innocents?

Do you remember the "penalty" that the butcher of MyLai got? And remember, MyLai was just the normal course of events.

What about the superiors, the higher ups in the Pentagon? What of all the prezes since WWII - war criminals all. They did things that Germans and Japanese were hung for at Nuremberg/Tokyo.

I'm afraid that brutality towards others is deeply ingrained in the American psyche, not all, of course, but enough that presidents can continually get away with murder, 'cause, well just because it's natural.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

This joker takes any woman who has made what she thinks is a statement she can "deconstruct" to the detriment of the reputation of feminists, and labels them feminists.

And if these people label themselves feminists? Then what? Besides, you're moving the goal posts. Earlier, you criticized that:

Setanta wrote:

Do you allege that the women involved are prominent speakers for feminism?

These women do, and GirlWritesWhat names them specifically and notes if their literature is used academically. Your criticism is similar enough to the criticisms she received and that's why she made a video specifically linking quotes to feminists (self described or otherwise) to the kinds of ideas she finds appalling.

Setanta wrote:

Hillary Clinton a feminist? Not on the planet i live on.

Why not? The only way you could say she's not is if you used your own definition of feminism to exclude her. That would be the exact thing you're criticizing the women on the video for.

Setanta wrote:

Her definition of who is a feminist is so broad as to bascically embrace anyone she thinks she can bring into disrepute for what they've said. This just underlines what i and Soz have said in this thread, that a working definition of feminism is needed. One hasn't been provided, and the author just dodges the issue because he, like the woman in the video, finds it easier to carp if there isn't such a definition of feminist, if true, polemical feminists are not identified.

I disagree. I think it's equally valid to examine statements from a wide variety of authors that choose to define the term diversely and critique what ideas they have. Some may be praised, others perhaps not. The point is that if you want to criticize GirlWritesWhat for using feminist to include people you don't agree with, you can't simply exclude them in your definition as to invalidate her argument.

Setanta wrote:

I find if kind of loony, too. So, for example, if one wanted something to rant about with regard to feminism, and while identifying a polemical feminist, then i would suggest Susan Brownmiller. In Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape she articulates a premis to the effect that men use, and all men benefit from the use of rape as a means of perpetuating male dominance by keeping all women in a state of fear.

The Brownmiller quote was on the list that she read. Perhaps you didn't watch the video before you launched into your visceral rant, Set.

In your opinion, why shouldn't Brownmiller's ideas be considered when discussing feminism?

Setanta wrote:

But neither this woman in the video nor the author of this thread want to be that specific, nor to address polemical feminism.

I'm comfortable discussing any definition. It's more important to you, so why don't you provide one.

Setanta wrote:

It is easier, after all, to simply brand any woman who has made a statement which one considers indefensible and label her a feminist, and thereby bring into disrepute the concept of feminism. The author of this thread couldn't even be bothered to do his own leg work in that effort--he got the anti-feminist videographer here to do that for him.

The people she quotes label themselves as feminists. If they aren't, what are they? Who that is a feminist in the knowing eyes of Setanta is, says they aren't?

Setanta wrote:

Let's have a definition of feminism, and a clear-cut criterion for identifying who the feminists are who can be said to speak for feministm. Otherwise, this is just a bait thread.

It's not a bait thread. It's an interesting topic to me. It can be discussed without your bile, and righteous indignation. If you don't care for it, nobody is forcing you to participate. If nobody is interested, then the the thread dies.

I'm curious if any prominent feminists have tried to advance equality for men and women in ways that would be otherwise viewed as a disadvantage for women. E.g. - Have any prominent feminists fought to get women to have to register for the selective services in the USA? Such an action would be a step towards equality would it not? If there is such an author/speaker, I'd very much be interested in what she had to say.

I'm not anti-feminist because I have criticisms. Is it taboo to discuss this? What's the harm. I'm liberal, and I have criticisms of many liberal speakers. I'm an atheist, and I have criticisms of many vocal atheists. Can we not speak to specific ideas or must things be reduced to any criticism is an assault?

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Idiot. Do you even understand what i am saying when i speak of polemical feminists? Do you allege, for example, that any whack job, religious right holy roller who calls for holy war against Muslims speaks for all Christians and all conservatives? Upon what basis do you allege that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is ipso facto a reliable spokesman for feminism? That's a pretty big straw man, there, Chicken Little. Will you be able to knock it down without assistance?

Many of the people she quotes in the video you apparently didn't watch are published individuals. They aren't simply random people. They are people who have been elevated to a position to write about these topics because others think they are a significant voice.

That you think they aren't reliable spokespeople, is beside the point.

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Criticism of Feminism

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