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Criticism of Feminism

 
 
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:20 am
The Huffington Post wrote:

The Penis Mom

When I was little I wanted to be a lot of things: Johnny Carson's replacement; A Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader so good I was the only one on the team; an artist with my own wing at the Boston Museum of Fine Art -- you know, normal stuff. I wanted to be a lot of things, but I never -- I PROMISE you -- ever wanted to grow up to be someone known as "The Penis Mom".

But here I am.

It all started way back in early November, when my 13-year-old's teacher sent an email to parents saying they were doing a little Pumpkin Chunkin' -- this is a very cool physics project where the kids launch pumpkins with a trébuchet. Awesome. Except the email asked for help setting up the trébuchet. Help from dads. That's right, dads. Are there any strong dads who can help? So if you know me, you know I'm cautious. I sat down at my computer to check the facts, first looking at the calendar to see what year we were in -- yep, still 2011. So with time-travel ruled out, we were only left with the possibility that we had somehow slipped into an alternate universe, one where teachers have giant balls. Balls clearly big enough to toss such gender-biased questions out into the wind without concern for where they might land. And thus began my verbal rant. I am uncertain how long it lasted, however when I finally came up for air my husband/editor had made dinner, cleaned up, and put the kids to bed.

At that point, I sat down to respond to the email.

Dear teachers and parents:
Are you guys seriously only asking for Dads?

Is lifting done with a penis?

Thoughtfully yours,

- Karen

Simple and to the point, right? But, before I hit send I remember that email goes to all parents and sometimes people reach this interesting conclusion that I am a little too edgy. So, I decide to get a second opinion from the voice of reason. I go into my editor/husband and read my response. Now, if you know my editor/husband you know how completely insane this is [Editor's note: What?! Insane?]. It is like a Stegosaurus asking a T-Rex if she appears too aggressive. Wait, some of you may not have toddlers; let me try that again. It is like a gentle breeze asking a hurricane if he should ease up a bit on the blowing. If I am edgy, my editor husband is flying off the edge, not even realizing there was one. If I am a little over the top, he is bouncing off the top as high as he can reach. He is not the man to ask for help when you need to know how the norm will react.

And yet I do.

"Is the penis thing too much?" I ask.

"Too much? It's insufficient. Why don't you ask if it needs to be dads because there's going to be some cocking on the unit? Tell them I'll bring my friends Dick Johnson, Peter Hard-on and Chubby E. Rekshun to help..." And so it went on this way. As he continued on and on, it got quiet in my head. My hands reached for the mouse, moved the cursor over my email, and I clicked Send, thinking "Well, at least I am not him."

This is not the first time this rationalization has gotten me into trouble.

Within hours my penis-lifting comment had apparently bunched more than a few panties.

Parents were horrified. Who knew this might happen? Not us. OK, we probably knew -- but seriously? Asking exclusively for dads to help is offensive on so many levels to me. I am freakishly strong and could mount a trébuchet with the best of them [Editor's note: Um, honey, you don't actually mount a trébuchet]. As someone who was a single mom for a good long time, I take issue with the assumption that every home has a dad to contribute. But most of all, I resent the message we are giving to our daughters that because of their gender, they are unwelcome to participate in physical tasks -- that they are not strong enough and that only a man qualifies. I resent the message to all our children that we judge the value of contribution based on sex and not competence. What the hell year is this? I better double-check that.

Still 2011.

So, I received a slap-on-the-wrist email about how correspondence should be g-rated because some of the students are on the email list. I was slightly confused by this because, in my mind, "penis" is g-rated. Honestly, I would love to have been more colorful -- but that would have been inappropriate. I was also slightly confused because it seemed perfectly OK with everyone to send socially regressive requests out that diminish our girl's sense of worth, but they are now circling the wagons because I used the word penis? To thirteen-year-olds? Really?

To further complicate and add humor to this situation, I signed the note Karen. Now I did this mostly because my name is Karen. However, that also happens to be the name of the school principal. This caused quite stir because everyone thought the principal sent the penis note. Tee hee hee. I didn't plan it that way, but I love a good farcical mix up.

Karen the principal sent out a note of clarification, reminding us that emails must be "all Disney all the time." Tee hee hee. That part made me laugh -- however the next part did not:

"For the record I'm not a fan of lifting things though, and I don't really like the mud "

This is what the principal said in response to the email protesting asking for only dads. Hmm... interesting. So, don't rock the boat about gender discrimination because we girls don't like getting all dirty and doing hard work.

This does not make me feel better.

Ladies, this is not a situation of the men holding us back -- we are holding ourselves back because we don't want to step forward if it is icky and muddy. If you want equal pay, guess what? It comes with equal obligation to show up for Pumpkin Chunkin.

Asking for strong parents is smart. Asking for only the ones with a penis is inefficient and a little too Mad Men for 2011.

When I showed the email thread to my thirteen year old boy, I was a little worried he would be embarrassed and ask me why I can't be more like normal moms. But he didn't. Instead he offered "Screw them -- that is cool."

Now, I could focus on the fact that my boy just said "Screw them" and how wildly inappropriate that is -- or I could just be happy knowing I am doing something right with that boy and embrace the fact that I am now known at school functions and throughout the land as "The Penis Mom."


source

This was mostly entertaining, but to me it seems to be a divergent tone in female voice. It says that the problem wasn't some men getting in the way, and that women need to roll up their sleeves and get in the mud. The key opposition was another woman in a seat of power. This kind of story is interesting because again, it would have only existed in a theoretical way in the past.

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ossobuco
 
  2  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:22 am
@hawkeye10,
Who the hell do you think you are lecturing?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:27 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Yes, you're correct. I think you should watch the videos by the first woman I posted. She goes into great detail about about violence directed towards men. While a woman may not consult her inner feminist before doing something like this, a person premeditating a crime often does think of their own defense later. Catherine Kieu's words to the police upon arrival were:

"He deserved it."


What in the Hell has happened to you Fart? Not two years ago you were as naive as they come.....and now look at you!
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:29 am
@failures art,
Is this sexist, probably in some underlying way.
Reactive, maybe.
Out of her gourd, yes.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:45 am
I'll admit now I never looked at F'art's post videos.

Not that I'm against him, just that all videos all the time are trouble for me, re hearing, so I tend to skip along.

Back in a bit.
failures art
 
  2  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:45 am
@hawkeye10,
I've never thought anything or anyone was above reproach. That said, if I was critical of a scientific claim, that would not make me an non-scientist. In science, the most valuable criticism is from other scientists.

On the matter of gender issues, I observe many inequalities. Those inequalities and double standards exist for both sexes. If feminism fails to address (or in other cases denies the existence of) sexism addressed to men, then it deserves my criticism. That is not to say I don't have admiration or similar goals to many of the people who call themselves feminists.

Where I think you are stuck is that you have assumed a narrative of conflict. your "men suck" replies are combative and suggest that it's a contest for the top seat. I have no desire for one gender to "win." I'm primarily concerned with equal standing and responsibility. I'll praise it when I see it, and condemn it when I do not.

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0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:47 am
@ossobuco,
Sorry about the video. If I can find transcripts, I'll post links.

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ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:52 am
@failures art,
No, don't yet, I'll try it, I hear somewhat, but that's why I skip stuff.
Back to let you know if I get it.

Looked at the first one, got some words, gave up.
Moving along....
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:57 am
@failures art,
Sorry, art, I just can't take this seriously.

Having listened to the best part of the first couple of YouTube videos, for as long as I could endure the gross generalizations, the lack of facts or statistics to back up some rather silly assertions & the woman's supreme confidence, despite all this .....

What can I say?
She's a dumbsky.
Who grates. Badly.
You shoulda chosen a much more informed & credible critic of feminism if you wanted your issue to be taken seriously.

edit: followed by "Wife Chops Off Husband's Penis, Throws in Garbage Disposal" !
Oh honestly. Something that happens often?
What's to come? Laughing
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 02:14 am
@msolga,
You can't take this seriously? What specifically? Many things have been brought up.

Do you believe there is no valid criticism of feminism? What about sexist double standards being tolerated as long as they are directed at men?

Quote:
Having listened to the best part of the first couple of YouTube videos, for as long as I could endure the gross generalizations, the lack of facts or statistics to back up some rather silly assertions & the woman's supreme confidence, despite all this .....

What can I say?
She's a dumbsky.
Who grates. Badly.
You shoulda chosen a much more informed & credible critic of feminism if you wanted your issue to be taken seriously.


The women you find so grating and uninformed did provide sources in her comments on the second video. The second video was supplemental to the first and was made by request more or less to further address and provide example to back up the claims of the first video.

Here are the links she provided:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/Dutton_GenderParadigmInDV-Pt1.pdf

http://lab.drdondutton.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Dutton-D.G.-Corvo-K.-20...

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf

http://www.kidscape.org.uk/assets/downloads/Femalesexualabuseofchildren.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oua2y11BMxw

So, it seems that your response is appropriate to topic. I asked what do we assume about critics of feminism. Your response blindly asserts that she did not put any effort into backing up her claims. She did, but you didn't know where to look perhaps. You also went as far as to claim she is uninformed and lacks credibility. Do you claim to be greater informed, or of higher credibility? If so, why? I asked what do we assume about the critics, you answered: A lot.

What did she say specifically that you disagree with?

Quote:
edit: followed by "penis mom" !
Oh honestly.
What's to come?

Did you read the article or this is just a shallow scoff at the title?

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msolga
 
  2  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 02:28 am
@failures art,
I'm sorry for being flippant, Art.
But that first woman was insufferable.
She drove me to that post! Wink

To tell the truth, at this point in the dying days of 2011 I find class .... the haves & have-nots a much more pressing issue.

Yes, I would describe myself as a "feminist"
But no, I don't believe men are oppressed as a result of past feminist activities.
And I think it's over-the-top to claim that men are now "disposable".
Or are second rate citizens, compared to women.
Tell that to the poorest women.
It's probably more accurate to say that many men feel more vulnerable than they would have, say, 30 years ago ....


-
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 02:28 am
@failures art,
That one sounded like ordinary snark to me.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 02:42 am
@failures art,
http://able2know.org/topic/182363-1#post-4841240


getting back to this, which I'd skipped over (sorry), criminy, twice. Some women have reason for hatred, but usually hatred doesn't always involve that acting out.

Ok, that explains why lawyers benefit society.

Revolting. I don't know what to say - have been reading so that I just despair.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 02:56 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I'm sorry for being flippant, Art.
But that first woman was insufferable.
She drove me to that post! Wink

Insufferable is pretty strong language. You'd have felt better if she had made the same point differently, or simply not at all?

msolga wrote:

To tell the truth, at this point in the dying days of 2011 I find class .... the haves & have-nots a much more pressing issue.

I'm inclined to agree, but we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time as they say. I don't believe discussing a topic like gender detracts from a concern or interest in the issue of class. In fact, it may have a great deal of over lap.

msolga wrote:

Yes, I would describe myself as a "feminist"

In your own words, how do you define what that means to you?

To Gloria Allred, if you're not a feminist, you're a bigot. Her stated definition of a feminist is for equal first class status for women. That's great on paper, but can you work for equally in society by only focusing on the issues of one gender?



msolga wrote:

But no, I don't believe men are oppressed as a result of past feminist activities.

I don't think that was her thrust. What did she say to suggest this?

msolga wrote:

And I think it's over-the-top to claim that men are now "disposable".

I thought she made very good examples:

1) Clinical studies regarding the care of children by gender - The female children who are upset are attended to quickly, and males are left to cry longer.

2) Industry and manufacturing labor jobs which are dis-proportionally male are the jobs most in peril in the world.

3) Eygptian protesters outraged at women beaten - Men beaten by hundreds before women show up en masse to protest chanting about the life of their brother that will fall if they are hurt.

Those were just a few.
msolga wrote:

Or are second rate citizens, compared to women.

Not that she used this language, but if she had, in the context of the USA, there are areas where the law is concerned that men are:

1) Selective Service - Men must sign up for draft.

2) In some states male victims of abuse are not allowed in government funded safety shelters for the sexually abused if they are above a certain age.

3) Asymmetry in parental rights and financial obligations

4) For the other source I posted earlier: Criminal activity - For similar crimes, women receive 40% of the sentencing men do.

msolga wrote:

Tell that to the poorest women.

It's not a competition. We can acknowledge the struggle of all human beings. Are you suggesting that impoverished men are of secondary concern to impoverished women? Should you put a possessionless homeless woman in a shelter before a possessionless homeless man?

msolga wrote:

It's probably more accurate to say that many men feel more vulnerable than they would have, say, 30 years ago.

Sure, and showing indifference to it is not enlightened.

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msolga
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 03:27 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Insufferable is pretty strong language. You'd have felt better if she had made the same point differently, or simply not at all?

She was talking in gross generalizations, art .... life boats, burning buildings, etc.
Male circumcision, female mutilation ....
Nothing she said convinced me that men are "disposable" .
She just didn't appear to be very authoritative, while overly-confident, that's all ....

Quote:
I don't believe discussing a topic like gender detracts from a concern or interest in the issue of class. In fact, it may have a great deal of over lap.

I guess, for me, it's how we discuss it.
I can't relate to quite a bit of the material posted.
Others might.

Quote:
In your own words, how do you define what that means to you?

I admire (hugely) the women who initially fought to gain voting rights for women.
Same with later feminists who fought for equal pay pay for women in the late 60s & 7os. But there are still gender-based discrepancies.
I strongly believe that women should have the same rights as men (that includes a few "cultural" issues I won't go into right now.)
I believe that women & men should equally share the responsibilities of child rearing & "home duties", for want of a better term. (& to their credit many younger men are pitching in on this front, far more than their fathers & grandfather's did. But many women still carry the brunt of those duties, while holding down jobs as well.)
I think women still receive a raw deal from many employers , trying to balance work & childrearing responsibilities.
I have very strong views on the degrading impact of pornography industry on women (unlike many younger feminists who are quite comfortable about pornography) & also the exploitative "sexualization" of young girls via advertising & the media ...


Just a few of my feminist beliefs.
I'll probably think of more in a few minutes ....
Other feminists may see things differently, or have quite different priorities .
There is not one set agenda.

I don't know who Gloria Allfred is & I haven't had a chance to look at that video yet.
But I am not about women being "first", I prefer equality.

msolga
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 04:11 am
@failures art,
I just saw there was more in your post!:

I don't think her examples are great & I'm not sure what they have to do with feminism, exactly.:

There is plenty of research which indicates that boys get a disproportionate share of their teachers' attention in co-ed schools, for example.
The women replacing those "disposable" laborers in full-time factory jobs are probably cheaper, casualized workers. And how long their jobs might last (in western countries) , before being sent off-shore, is anyone's guess.
The last example could be described as mass action by women in response to Egyptian military violence. :

Quote:

1) Clinical studies regarding the care of children by gender - The female children who are upset are attended to quickly, and males are left to cry longer.

2) Industry and manufacturing labor jobs which are dis-proportionally male are the jobs most in peril in the world.

3) Eygptian protesters outraged at women beaten - Men beaten by hundreds before women show up en masse to protest chanting about the life of their brother that will fall if they are hurt.


Quote:
....showing indifference to it is not enlightened.

I am not exactly indifferent.
And I'm not sure where enlightenment comes into it, either.

-
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 04:14 am
@failures art,
Quote:
To Gloria Allred, if you're not a feminist, you're a bigot.


Just watched it.
She's actually talking about women having equal status to men, not being second class.
Setanta
 
  2  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 05:47 am
I don't assume anything about the critics of feminism, because anyone, anywhere, at any time might criticize feminism--i know of no way to exhaustively categorize such critics.

However, your thread is a mess. First of all, because random comments by women doesn't constitute feminist polemics. Second, because feminism is not necessarily a political program nor a political ideology, and cannot, therefore, be criticized polemically on the basis of performance in the public arena. The most political of allegedly feminist programs are those which seek equality of opportunity and compensation in the work place, and a woman need not be a feminist to demand such equality.

Finally, a man who has no interest in or stake in what people might describe as feminism could as easily see the need for and call for equality of opportunity and compensation in the work place. Providing anecdotes about a man having his penis cut off and the reaction of a handful of women to the event is pretty idiotic, when the theme is, ostensibly, criticism of feminism. Do you allege that the women involved are prominent speakers for feminism?

Stupid thread.
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 07:43 am
I agree with Hawkeye. American women ARE indulged and privileged. Never have there been so many opportunities for them, in every field.

However, real feminism will not be obtained until women around the world unite and stop blantent discrimination - jeez, some women can't even DRIVE in their own country. Even in this country, the government tells you what and what you can't do with your own body.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 30 Dec, 2011 07:43 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Insufferable is pretty strong language. You'd have felt better if she had made the same point differently, or simply not at all?

She was talking in gross generalizations, art .... life boats, burning buildings, etc.

Which was her challenge to address in the second video I posted. In that, she used very specific examples.

msolga wrote:

Male circumcision, female mutilation ....

These are real things, not generalizations. I think circumcision is definitely one we should pause on. We should pause on it specifically because of how mindlessly we accept it.

msolga wrote:

Nothing she said convinced me that men are "disposable" .

And yet if men feel this way? What then? They're lived experience is wrong to your intuition?

msolga wrote:

She just didn't appear to be very authoritative, while overly-confident, that's all ....

She provided citations, you're free to examine her sources which provide the authority sans her overtly-confident nature.

I might note here, that when feminists express challenge to generally accepted ideas, they did so with overt confidence. They, like many before them were labelled "uppity." I don't see why she should have to present herself any differently. She expresses confidence, and why not? She did her reading and feels confident enough to back it up.

msolga wrote:

Quote:
I don't believe discussing a topic like gender detracts from a concern or interest in the issue of class. In fact, it may have a great deal of over lap.

I guess, for me, it's how we discuss it.
I can't relate to quite a bit of the material posted.
Others might.

Fair enough. Our experience in life are diverse.

msolga wrote:

Quote:
In your own words, how do you define what that means to you?

I admire (hugely) the women who initially fought to gain voting rights for women.
Same with later feminists who fought for equal pay pay for women in the late 60s & 7os. But there are still gender-based discrepancies.
I strongly believe that women should have the same rights as men (that includes a few "cultural" issues I won't go into right now.)
I believe that women & men should equally share the responsibilities of child rearing & "home duties", for want of a better term. (& to their credit many younger men are pitching in on this front, far more than their fathers & grandfather's did. But many women still carry the brunt of those duties, while holding down jobs as well.)
I think women still receive a raw deal from many employers , trying to balance work & childrearing responsibilities.
I have very strong views on the degrading impact of pornography industry on women (unlike many younger feminists who are quite comfortable about pornography) & also the exploitative "sexualization" of young girls via advertising & the media ...

Just a few of my feminist beliefs.
I'll probably think of more in a few minutes ....

I no less appreciate these accomplishments. I frame them as victories for human rights, not women's rights though. You heavily admire women in the above words, but you realize that it was not the work of women alone that brought these events to pass. Any victory that challenges orthodoxy on confined roles in society is a victory for equal human rights. There's plenty left to do, and for what it's worth on the matter of gender, there are battles for men as well. Ignoring that these battles exist is not helpful in my opinion.

msolga wrote:

Other feminists may see things differently, or have quite different priorities .
There is not one set agenda.

Yes, and I admit this true. I said as much at the beginning. There is no leader so many critics of feminism will target outliers or strawmen. I never said all critics of feminism are good, I simply stated that we assume much about them, and even their motives without addressing their content. It's only in addressing their ideas do we test the value of their critique.

Is feminism open to critique? You yourself noted that you and younger feminists differ on some topics like pornography. I never said criticism of feminism came from outside the circled wagons.

msolga wrote:

I don't know who Gloria Allfred is & I haven't had a chance to look at that video yet.
But I am not about women being "first", I prefer equality.

She's a women's rights lawyer in practice for several decades.

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