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Criticism of Feminism

 
 
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:19 am
It's not easy.

There is no leader of the feminists. There is presumably no correct or orthodoxy in how to best be a feminist (maybe). Any headless entity is most likely combated by individuals and groups that often target outliers and strawmen (or strawwomen as the case may be here). This can make the critics of such things seem weak or illogical. This can also mean that a criticism of one action or event can be interpreted as a larger critique of the whole.

Over much of my life I've been comfortable with the term "feminist," but I feel that perhaps it requires an update, or perhaps retirement. I find myself thinking about what I actually embrace: Human equality.

I've watched a few videos recently about sexism. Sexism portrayed by women in this case. People's reactions have been really interesting to me, and I'm interested in some additional A2K feedback. One personal observation I have so far is that if the critic is a man, then "he doesn't get it," and if it's another woman, she is a "disgrace to her gender." I started to think about human narratives, and then a question popped into my head:

What do we assume about the critics of feminism?

Do we assume they are primarily male? Conservative? Old? What assumptions do we make about their life experiences?

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failures art
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:24 am

There was a large response to this on Reddit and Youtube, so she did a follow up video.

How would the response to this be different if she was a guy? Would her thoughts be equally considerable?

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hawkeye10
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:30 am
@failures art,
Quote:
What do we assume about the critics of feminism?


That we dont appreciate someones idea of the "right way" to look at gender and personal power being rammed down our throat as we are told that we have no choice but to comply with demands. Critics of the feminists are to a man and a woman opposed to oppression.
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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:35 am
Apparently I missed this controversy over the summer, but it's pretty sick. The short of it is as follows:

ABC News wrote:

Wife Chops Off Husband's Penis, Throws in Garbage Disposal

Catherine Kieu Becker, 48, is under arrest for chopping off her husband's penis and tossing it in the garbage disposal.

After she laced her husband's food with an unknown drug or poison, he lay down, believing something was wrong with the food, according to police reports. Her husband then woke up tied to the bed as Becker cut off his penis with a knife. She then threw the genitalia in the garbage disposal and turned the disposal on, Lt. Jeff Nightengale of Garden Grove, Calif. police, said.

Nightengale said the couple is going through a divorce, but could not confirm why Becker wanted to cut off her husband's manhood.

Becker eventually called 911, asking for medical assistance. When firefighters and police arrived on scene, Becker told officials that her husband "deserved it," said Nightengale. Police found the man, who remains unidentified, tied to the bed and "bleeding profusely." Becker was arrested on several charges, including aggravated mayhem, false imprisonment and assault with a deadly weapon.


full story

The story itself didn't get a lot of attention until the show "The Talk" brought it up as a subject. Then things got out of control.



Is this sexist?

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hawkeye10
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:37 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Apparently I missed this controversy over the summer, but it's pretty sick. The short of it is as follows:


That is not directly related to feminism, but it is facilitated by the feminist message of "MEN SUCK!"
ossobuco
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:41 am
To an extent, I think feminism became academic fast, which was something of a fault to me, re a kind of isolation. But ideas leaked. The ideas of the burgeoning sixties, actually in print, weren't completely new.

Me, I was glad to get to wear pants to take trigonometry at santa monica city college, probably summer of '60, or was it for california civics in summer of '61.
Somewhere in there, the rules changed for women getting to wear pants.
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failures art
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:43 am
A man is suing the London School of Economics gender studies dept for teaching sexism. In this case, from what details I know, his claim is that the school portrays "gender studies" as a woman's issue, and so the curriculum is inherently incomplete. The incomplete curriculum them leads itself of a sexism because it belittles or ignores gender topics outside of women's issues ergo the school teaches sexism.



Do you think he has a point?

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hawkeye10
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:45 am
Quote:
At the macro level, says Pinker, there is a consensus in the international community “that violence against women is the most pressing human rights problem remaining in the world.” As it is at the top, so it also is on the street

http://www.forbes.com/sites/shenegotiates/2011/12/05/womens-economic-power-decreases-domestic-violence-against-both-genders/

In other words,

MEN SUCK!
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:47 am
@failures art,
Yes, of course, if specific to women issues are all the department teaches. I get anger about that.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:53 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Yes, of course, if specific to women issues are all the department teaches. I get anger about that.


The "slut walks" should have made you angry, all of those spoiled brat American young women whining about how oppressed they are are by men, when they dont know the first thing about the grievances that launched feminism because they have never experienced any obstacle or harm even remotely on par with them.
failures art
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:54 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Apparently I missed this controversy over the summer, but it's pretty sick. The short of it is as follows:


That is not directly related to feminism, but it is facilitated by the feminist message of "MEN SUCK!"

I think it does have to do with feminism. The fact that there is a show where the entire cast is female (with The View, there's two) during high volume day hours on major network TV is largely a touchstone on the state of female media presence. In other words, without feminists, such a show would not exist, and talking about it would be only theoretical.

In this case, we see that left to the same need to provide entertainment to their audience (who sickeningly laughed along), a whole cast of women were no less capable of mocking human tragedy and in the process ignorantly promoted the idea that he must have deserved it.

This was a crime involving a premeditated drugging, being bound in restraints, being mutilated, and almost dying. There is nothing about this that is humorous, but somehow gender narratives allowed for this to be qualified for laughs. The only sobering moment is brought on by one cast member who cautiously admits that the laughter is a bit sickening and that it's sexist and that the group would not be laughing if a woman had narrowly survived being drugged, and mutilated. She's interrupted by Osborn with yet another joke:

"No. This is different."

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ossobuco
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:55 am
@hawkeye10,
Don't lay your **** on me. I don't happen to think men suck as a generalization, and ne'er do many other feminists. I'll agree things may have been worse a while ago, but I don't know that, not being a hidden data follower.
hawkeye10
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:01 am
@failures art,
Quote:

I think it does have to do with feminism. The fact that there is a show where the entire cast is female (with The View, there's two) during high volume day hours on major network TV is largely a touchstone on the state of female media presence


I was speaking about the impulse to cut off a mans dick is not directly related to feminism, but the "men suck!" message is sympathetic....no woman who is thinking about this is going to think of some feminist theory or personality and decide " you know what, doing that would not be a good idea and I know this because feminism tells me so".
failures art
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:02 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

ossobuco wrote:

Yes, of course, if specific to women issues are all the department teaches. I get anger about that.


The "slut walks" should have made you angry, all of those spoiled brat American young women whining about how oppressed they are are by men, when they dont know the first thing about the grievances that launched feminism because they have never experienced any obstacle or harm even remotely on par with them.

The Slut Walks offended a lot of people. Many who additionally call themselves feminists.

To quote a female friend camping in McPherson Square as a part of #OccupyDC after seeing a video of topless women occupy protesters in NYC:

"I'm tired of women's bodies becoming political billboards. I'm not trying to excite people, I'm trying to warn them."

The slut walks didn't bother me. I think sarcasm and irony have their place in political commentary. I also think the event that inspired them was also a legitimately sexist act. If I have any real criticism of the SW, it's that it did well to get people out, but perhaps the irony spoiled to humor and the tone was wrong. People didn't see a bunch of women protesting a sexist police message, they saw a group of people amused with their own wit.

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hawkeye10
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:02 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Don't lay your **** on me. I'll agree things may have been worse a while ago, but I don't know that.


Senility?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:05 am
@failures art,
Quote:
People didn't see a bunch of women protesting a sexist police message, they saw a group of people amused with their own wit.


It would help if these people would send us some signal that their "protest" is of the comedy central variety, no more a protest than The Colbert Report is news...
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ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:10 am
@hawkeye10,
What is your implication? That I could be interested in now and think it is not worse than the past is a sign of senility?

Cute.
If you are going to quote me, quote the whole thing. In this case, not all that long a text.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:13 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

I think it does have to do with feminism. The fact that there is a show where the entire cast is female (with The View, there's two) during high volume day hours on major network TV is largely a touchstone on the state of female media presence


I was speaking about the impulse to cut off a mans dick is not directly related to feminism, but the "men suck!" message is sympathetic....no woman who is thinking about this is going to think of some feminist theory or personality and decide " you know what, doing that would not be a good idea and I know this because feminism tells me so".


Yes, you're correct. I think you should watch the videos by the first woman I posted. She goes into great detail about about violence directed towards men. While a woman may not consult her inner feminist before doing something like this, a person premeditating a crime often does think of their own defense later. Catherine Kieu's words to the police upon arrival were:

"He deserved it."

The Amazing Athiest is a vlogger who talks about many topics. He hit on this topic as well.


The most of the video is about the Catherine Kieu incident on the The Talk, and his disgust at the reaction, but he later goes on (skip to 1:46) to another example of crime in media where women are given a pass come sentencing for their crimes.

Another video of his, he claims that for similar crimes, women receive 40% less time on their sentencing.

Bold emphasis added to distinguish which categories of crime women receive harsher sentencing than men.
Quote:
51% 1 Murder
43% 2 Manslaughter
37% 3 Kidnapping/Hostage
68% 4 Sexual Abuse
34% 5 Assault
57% 6 Bank Robbery
24% 9 Arson
47% 10 Drugs: Trafficking
50% 11 Drugs: Communicatn facilities
81% 12 Drugs: Simple possession
54% 13 Firearms: Use & possess
(21%) 15 Burg/Breaking & Entering
14% 16 Auto Theft
57% 17 Larceny
45% 18 Fraud
46% 19 Embezzlement
49% 20 Forgery/Counterfeiting
40% 21 Bribery
14% 22 Tax offenses
40% 23 Money laundering
62% 24 Racktring (includes extortion)
100% 25 Gambling/Lottery
41% 26 Civil rights offenses
51% 27 Immigration
43% 28 Pornography/Prostitution
32% 29 Offenses in prisons
60% 30 Administration of justice
117% 31 Environmental offenses
34% 32 National defense offenses
100% 33 Antitrust violations
(253%) 34 Food and drug offenses
63% 35 Traffic violations

And now it is possible to calculate how much less, on average, by crime, a woman is sentenced to than a man: 40%. Note that there are only two (2) areas in which women's sentences exceed men's.

source:
United States Department of Justice. Bureau of Justice Statistics. Federal Justice Statistics Program: Defendants Sentenced Under the Sentencing Reform Act, 2007 [United States] [Computer file]. ICPSR24232-v1. Ann Arbor, MI: Inter-university Consortium for Political and Social Research [distributor], 2009-02-23. doi:10.3886/ICPSR24232

So yeah, feminism probably wasn't in her head, but the expectation of lenience might have been. In other words, she may have expected to get away with it out of sympathy.

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ossobuco
 
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Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:17 am
I managed while trying to post to miss some key posts. Gah.

Back when I react.
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hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 01:17 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

What is your implication? That I could be interested in now and think it is not worse than the past is a sign of senility?

Cute.



If you think that women of today suffer anything close to the mistreatment that launched feminism then you need to be seeing to your medical needs, as your brain as big problems. Women of today in America are the most pampered, entitled, and self indulgent women who have ever walked the Earth. Their complaints about how bad they have it because they are women dont survive three minutes of examination. Men clearly have it worse than women now, and that is were our focus should be...on those most in need of help.
 

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