What is free will?

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Eve was not immortal.

Eve was not perfect.
Are you saying that perfection implies immortality?

I'm saying that supposedly your GOD is perfect...and is immortal.

If immortality is a part of the GOD's perfection...why wouldn't it be a part of Eve's?

Your GOD also knew the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil. The GOD did not want Eve to know that difference, because it would make her like the gods.

The gods were perfect...and Eve was lacking some of their perfection.

So Eve was not perfect.

But I know you cannot deviate from that silliness that Eve was perfect. So I'll just accommodate you by discussing it with you.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

It is certainly understandable when men rebel against an imperfect human purpose. God's purpose does not fit into that category.

All you are doing here is brown-nosing your god. If the god falls for this nonsense, Neo, the god is not worth the brown-nosing.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Satan was perfect
He was created by a perfect God
He chose to rebel
As did Eve
And Adam

And God's first human creations went so horribly wrong that he drowned every man, woman and child on earth.

Are you seeing a pattern here, where the "perfect" creations of a "perfect" God result in monstrous outcomes?

Gods who don't create so good, shouldn't create so much, lol.

1 Reply

The moral of the Adam/Eve story is clear enough to me-
1- Life will be perfect (like in Eden) if humans obey God.
2- Satan will try to make humans disobey God.
3- If they choose to listen to Satan life won't be perfect.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

The moral of the Adam/Eve story is clear enough to me-
1- Life will be perfect (like in Eden) if humans obey God.
2- Satan will try to make humans disobey God.
3- If they choose to listen to Satan life won't be perfect.

Why didn't he give Adam and Eve the chance to make an informed and logical decision about obeying?

The god denied them the knowledge of right and wrong...good and evil. There was no way for them to know that "disobeying" was wrong.

Let me repeat that: THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THEM TO KNOW THAT "DISOBEYING" WAS WRONG!

So they disobeyed...which in their mind was ethically and morally equal to obeying.

The moral of the story is ambiguous...because whoever made it up screwed up big time.

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@Frank Apisa,

I said understandable, not right.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

If immortality is a part of the GOD's perfection...why wouldn't it be a part of Eve's?

Why should it?
Eve's perfection allowed her the potential for everlasting life; but that's not the same thing. She lost her perfection when she disobeyed.

You presume Eve did not understand love and could not obey simply out of love for her creator. You presume Eve did not understand the meaning of death. Perhaps you have fallen into the delusional belief that the creative days were only 24 hours in length and Eve would not have had time to develop sensibility. But the seventh creative day has not yet ended. Eve could have been around for years. Adam certainly was. He had time to name the animals.

1 Reply

@Pasture Timmy,

Do you suppose any who were destroyed in the flood might have deserved another chance? Tell me how John 5:28, 29 takes that chance away.

Read the flood account carefully. Whether you agree with the reasons or not, at least you will see them. It's obvious you have not read it yet.

And, don't ask me to do your research for you.

1 Reply

Frank Apisa said:- "Let me repeat that: THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THEM TO KNOW THAT "DISOBEYING" WAS WRONG!
So they disobeyed...which in their mind was ethically and morally equal to obeying.."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But God had TOLD them it was wrong, therefore they KNEW it was wrong to munch the fruit.. Smile

For example my landlord told me to stop feeding the pigeons on my windowsill, but i couldn't see any harm in it myself.
Then he explained that their droppings could block the guttering and drainpipes and i had to admit he had a point.
Perhaps if God had explained to Adam/Eve why he didn't want them to eat the fruit, they'd have said "Okay, we see your point, we won't touch it".
I suppose God doesn't do "explain", and prefers instead to just tell us what we can or can't do and leave it to our free will to decide whether to obey him, call it a test.. Wink

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I said understandable, not right.

Grasping at straws here, Neo.

So you said "understandable.

How does that impact on what I said?

(Hint: It doesn't!) Wink

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Yeeks! I was simply responding to Fil's remark, not making a theological pronouncement.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
If immortality is a part of the GOD's perfection...why wouldn't it be a part of Eve's?
Why should it?
Eve's perfection allowed her the potential for everlasting life; but that's not the same thing. She lost her perfection when she disobeyed.

Great try, Neo...but no cigar.

She never had perfection. Lot of defects really. You could see them if your fear of your god didn't cause you to blind yourself to them.

Open the eyes, Neo.

Quote:

You presume Eve did not understand love and could not obey simply out of love for her creator. You presume Eve did not understand the meaning of death.

I don't presume anything here, Neo. To me it is almost certainly a myth...and a very imperfect one at that. But the story tells us that she did NOT know right from wrong...good from evil.

There's really no getting away from that.

Quote:

Perhaps you have fallen into the delusional belief that the creative days were only 24 hours in length and Eve would not have had time to develop sensibility. But the seventh creative day has not yet ended. Eve could have been around for years. Adam certainly was. He had time to name the animals.

The whole "day" thing does not interest me at all. Let the "day" be ten billion of current years. Who cares.

The story tells us that Eve DID NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG.

Focus on that.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Frank Apisa said:- "Let me repeat that: THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THEM TO KNOW THAT "DISOBEYING" WAS WRONG!
So they disobeyed...which in their mind was ethically and morally equal to obeying.."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But God had TOLD them it was wrong, therefore they KNEW it was wrong to munch the fruit..
For example my landlord told me to stop feeding the pigeons on my windowsill, but i couldn't see any harm in it myself.
Then he explained that their droppings could block the guttering and drainpipes and i had to admit he had a point.
Perhaps if God had explained to Adam/Eve why he didn't want them to eat the fruit, they'd have said "Okay, we see your point, we won't touch it".
I suppose God doesn't do "explain", and prefers instead to just tell us what we can or can't do and leave it to our free will to decide whether to obey him, call it a test..

The god purposefully refused to give them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong.

That is the point of the story.

Boy...I sure don't envy you people who have to defend this one, because it is a lulu. Wink

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank wrote:

The god purposefully refused to give them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong.

That is the point of the story.

Like a broken record, you continue to sidestep the obvious: that perfect humans would have been instilled with a perfectly operating conscience, obeying God out of love for Him. They would have to act deliberately to ignore their conscience.

Of course, the logical extension of such is license to determine what is good and what is bad. This was promised to Adam and Eve. How did it work out for them?

1 Reply

Frank Apisa said: "The god purposefully refused to give them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong. That is the point of the story.
Boy...I sure don't envy you people who have to defend this one, because it is a lulu"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We holy men LURV lulus.. Smile

Mate, if somebody signed up for golf lessons with you, you'd tell him "stand like this, swing like this". But if he kept saying "But WHY should I stand like that, and WHY should I swing like that?", you'd say "Mister, just shut yer trap and TRUST ME and just DO it, I'm not going to waste my time with lengthy explanations of postures, centre of gravity, and the mathematics of trajectories and ballistics!"
Same in Eden, God said "TRUST ME, your asses will be well and truly busted if you have that fruit".
Likewise, bomber pilots are assigned a target and just get on with the job without saying "WHY?", because they TRUST high command's orders.. Wink

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank wrote:
The god purposefully refused to give them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong.

That is the point of the story.
Like a broken record, you continue to sidestep the obvious: that perfect humans would have been instilled with a perfectly operating conscience, obeying God out of love for Him. They would have to act deliberately to ignore their conscience.

Of course, the logical extension of such is license to determine what is good and what is bad. This was promised to Adam and Eve. How did it work out for them?

You continue to sidestep the very obvious point of the story...that Adam and Eve DID NOT KNOW the difference between good and evil...between right and wrong. You want to assert that the story has them as "perfect beings" with a conscience and with great love for the god who was about to screw them...but the fact is that THE STORY itself tells us that they did not know the difference between right and wrong until after they ate the fruit.

How frightened of this god do you have to be to twist logic the way you are doing, Neo?

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Frank Apisa said: "The god purposefully refused to give them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong. That is the point of the story.
Boy...I sure don't envy you people who have to defend this one, because it is a lulu"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We holy men LURV lulus..
Mate, if somebody signed up for golf lessons with you, you'd tell him "stand like this, swing like this". But if he kept saying "But WHY should I stand like that, and WHY should I swing like that?", you'd say "Mister, just shut yer trap and TRUST ME and just DO it, I'm not going to waste my time with lengthy explanations of postures, centre of gravity, and the mathematics of trajectories and ballistics!"
Same in Eden, God said "TRUST ME, your asses will be well and truly busted if you have that fruit".
Likewise, bomber pilots are assigned a target and just get on with the job without saying "WHY?", because they TRUST high command's orders..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Ahh0Yj6zI&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]

As I said...the story tells us that the god refused to give them the knowledge of the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil...

...and then punished them for doing wrong!

The story is farce.

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But if they keep questioning my advice and instructions during combat they soon get themselves killed because I haven't the time or inclination to explain myself in the heat of battle, I'm a COMMANDER, not a wet nurse.. Smile

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http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ExIS/AA-GL6sml.jpg~original

Some of my boys-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ExIS/AA-squad.jpg~original

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

How frightened of this god do you have to be to twist logic the way you are doing, Neo?

I don't know why you continue to use the word "frightened". For if we both are wrong, in a few years we will be dead; and that will be the end of it. No roasting, toasting, broiling or boiling.
And, not a huge obligation is thrust upon us. As John wrote: For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:3)

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Free will is the exercise of the will to do what it wants.

The only problem is that it has been made to want what it wants by some cute nifty shifters.

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What is free will?

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