What is free will?

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Do you suppose any who were destroyed in the flood might have deserved another chance?

Without free will no one deserved to be drowned in God's great flood.

neologist wrote:

Read the flood account carefully. Whether you agree with the reasons or not, at least you will see them.

For sake of argument I accept your account of the flood. Quarreling over Bible interpretations is merely a distraction from discussing the issue of this thread (What is free will).
I see no evidence that anyone has ever had free will (which includes the children God drowned in "the great flood"). If you can show that the children had free choice and deserved to be drowned by God, then state your case.
In the meantime, it's my contention that free will is only an illusion which makes the God of the Bible a monster.

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@Pasture Timmy,

Aren't we so unruly that a Monster is required to make any sense out of us?

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Perhaps if God had explained to Adam/Eve why he didn't want them to eat the fruit, they'd have said "Okay, we see your point, we won't touch it".
I suppose God doesn't do "explain", and prefers instead to just tell us what we can or can't do and leave it to our free will to decide whether to obey him, call it a test..

Or call it what it actually is, "being set up for failure".

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Aren't we so unruly that a Monster is required to make any sense out of us?

It takes someone who has at least half a brain, and isn't superstitious, to make any sense out of the human condition.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
How frightened of this god do you have to be to twist logic the way you are doing, Neo?
I don't know why you continue to use the word "frightened". For if we both are wrong, in a few years we will be dead; and that will be the end of it. No roasting, toasting, broiling or boiling.
And, not a huge obligation is thrust upon us. As John wrote: For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:3)

Neo...I can think of no other reason for all this twisted logic and contorted reasoning you are using to justify something that is absurd on its face.

The story tells us the god denied these two people the ability to distinguish between right and wrong...and then punished them for doing wrong.

It is most likely a myth...that someone invented to supposedly make a point. But the myth creator simply did not think the thing through.

You are defending it in the face of an absurd scenario.

If you are not terrified of the god involved...why are you doing it?

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@Pasture Timmy,

Quote:

It takes someone who has at least half a brain, and isn't superstitious, to make any sense out of the human condition.

Like a Behaviorist scientist I suppose you mean?

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Like a Behaviorist scientist I suppose you mean?

It depends on whether or not the Behaviorist scientist has at least half a brain and is superstitious or not.

1 Reply

@Pasture Timmy,

Behavioral scientists are noted for their brain power and pride themselves on not being superstitious.

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@Pasture Timmy,

Pasture Timmy wrote:

For sake of argument I accept your account of the flood. Quarreling over Bible interpretations is merely a distraction from discussing the issue of this thread (What is free will).
I see no evidence that anyone has ever had free will (which includes the children God drowned in "the great flood"). If you can show that the children had free choice and deserved to be drowned by God, then state your case.

But you are quarreling over Bible interpretations.
And any who did not deserve to be killed in the flood will be entitled to the resurrection promised in John 5:28. You realize, of course, they would be long dead by now regardless of how they died.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Behavioral scientists are noted for their brain power and pride themselves on not being superstitious.

Somewhere in the world is the worst behavioral scientist, and they may not meet the brain and superstition requirements of my somewhat facetious statement.

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@neologist,

Pasture Timmy wrote:

I see no evidence that anyone has ever had free will (which includes the children God drowned in "the great flood"). If you can show that the children had free choice and deserved to be drowned by God, then state your case.

neologist wrote:

And any who did not deserve to be killed in the flood will be entitled to the resurrection promised in John 5:28. You realize, of course, they would be long dead by now regardless of how they died.

Do you realize that you didn't make a case that the children had free choice and deserved to be drowned by God?

1 Reply

@Pasture Timmy,

What you don't understand is that the entire human race was cast into imperfection and death by the rebellion in Eden

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

What you don't understand is that the entire human race was cast into imperfection and death by the rebellion in Eden

Right!

These two people who did not know right from wrong...did something the god considered "wrong." The god purposefully withheld from them the knowledge of how to distinguish right from wrong...from knowing good from evil...

...and when they did what the god considered wrong...

...even though they did not know there was anything wrong with doing "wrong"...

...the god severely punished them and all the rest of humanity for all the rest of time.

No sparer of the rod...this god.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

What you don't understand is that the entire human race was cast into imperfection and death by the rebellion in Eden

What I understand from your replies is, you can't make a case that the children had free choice or that they deserved to be drowned, but you bow down to the God who murdered these children and see it as being fair and just.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

No sparer of the rod...this god.

Wor a wuss!!

Whoever turned a bunch of monkeys into a civilisation with its golf courses, its frothy beers and its microwave dinners by sparing the rod?

Sparing the rod is an evolutionary dead end. Chucking the little dears under the chin is hopeless although it might be possible as an individual indulgence in a world created by the big stick in a short window of opportunity which collapses under its own incoherence.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

These two people who did not know right from wrong...did something the god considered "wrong." The god purposefully withheld from them the knowledge of how to distinguish right from wrong...from knowing good from evil...

...and when they did what the god considered wrong...

...even though they did not know there was anything wrong with doing "wrong"... . . .. ..

Just FMI, Frank, I don't believe we have covered this in our years of fun filled parries:
How about Satan? Did he also not know good from evil? If not, why did Jehovah pronounce sentence on him?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
These two people who did not know right from wrong...did something the god considered "wrong." The god purposefully withheld from them the knowledge of how to distinguish right from wrong...from knowing good from evil...

...and when they did what the god considered wrong...

...even though they did not know there was anything wrong with doing "wrong"... . . .. ..
Just FMI, Frank, I don't believe we have covered this in our years of fun filled parries:
How about Satan? Did he also not know good from evil? If not, why did Jehovah pronounce sentence on him?

I have absolutely no idea what "FMI" means, Neo.

I have no idea about the Satan stories. I have no idea if Satan knew good from evil. Is that covered in the texts?

BUT...we do know that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil...between right and wrong. The story tells us that. And we also know that the god wanted to prevent them from finding out that difference.

The story has them defying the god (as any fifth grader reading the story would tell you they would)...and even though they did not know they did wrong...the god punishes them severely and punishes all the rest of humanity forever.

Deal with that. Forget about Satan. That is just a diversion from the problems you have with the absurd story!

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@Pasture Timmy,

Pasture Timmy wrote:

What I understand from your replies is, you can't make a case that the children had free choice or that they deserved to be drowned, but you bow down to the God who murdered these children and see it as being fair and just.

Every child that has ever been born is under sentence of death as a result of Adam's sin.

What makes you focus on the children of Noah's day? What about the children of Hitler's day?

I keep telling you to read Genesis, chapter 3. I think perhaps you have not. In that chapter God promises relief for mankind and death to Satan. Adam and Eve were the only ones excluded by these words spoken to Satan: "I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

Since that time, of course, many other humans have joined Satan's offspring and excluded themselves from that mercy.

1 Reply

@neologist,

"Parries"!!!!! It's like a pillow case full of wet knickers coming at you with Apisa. He's into sparing the rod. Aaaaaaaaaaaah!! The Compassion Fan.

One thing very studiously avoided when the foundations on which he tees off were being constructed.

He fondly imagines that the world around him could have come about by sparing the rod.

He's just talking through his dick.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
These two people who did not know right from wrong...did something the god considered "wrong." The god purposefully withheld from them the knowledge of how to distinguish right from wrong...from knowing good from evil...

...and when they did what the god considered wrong...

...even though they did not know there was anything wrong with doing "wrong"... . . .. ..
Just FMI, Frank, I don't believe we have covered this in our years of fun filled parries:
How about Satan? Did he also not know good from evil? If not, why did Jehovah pronounce sentence on him?

It seams you willingly admit "evil" preceded "Satan"...I assume you also admit "God" must have been the creator of "evil" so that "value" can play a part in the game. But then from there you would have conceded evil has purpose and that in that sense evil its not evil...
Likewise one should agree it follows the potential for evil is not detrimental to perfection, in fact it is a condition for perfection to have any value at all.

On this light evil is a absolute necessity for a meaningful world to exist and "heaven" just as hearth can't pass without it... I will ad a bit of my own wisdom to give you food for thought, if anything only the sinner has value never the saint. In fact you must first be a sinner before you can be a proper saint. If you were not lost in the first place you have no merit.
Perhaps the metaphor on the fall of man you so literally interpret speaks more then one tongue...

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What is free will?

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