What is free will?

@neologist,

Quote:

Please give the source of your quote.

Wasn't Isaiah 45:7 close enough?

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Sounds simple, I know.
But our entire legal system presupposes the concept of free will.
Does this make it just or moral?

What?
Free will?
The legal system?
Concepts?
The act of presupposing?
The movie Free Willy?

0 Replies

@neologist,

Romans 11:36.
John 1:3
Colossians 1:16

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Please give the source of your quote.
Wasn't Isaiah 45:7 close enough?

(Isaiah 45:7) . . . "Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. . ."

This does not refer to individuals.

I believe Mark is referring inaccurately to the words of Paul. I would like to be sure, however.

1 Reply

@neologist,

The Isaiah reference was not to you neo.

1 Reply

@mark noble,

mark noble wrote:

Romans 11:36.

I don't see how this one applies. You will have to explain it.

mark noble wrote:

John 1:3
Colossians 1:16

"All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (John1:3)
" . . . because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. " (Colossians1:16)

Both of these refer to Jesus as the master worker. They do not exclude the free willed acts of those he created.

1 Reply

@mark noble,

That pesky @neologist got me

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@neologist,

Rom 11:36

'For FROM Him and THROUGH Him and TO Him are ALL things'
Jesus is/was God on Earth (manifest) in christian doctrine.

Note 'ALL' Things are FROM Him..........'ALL THINGS', All thoughts, materials, events, effects, causes - ALL THINGS.

This is not a contest btw.
And Gods are ficticious.

1 Reply

@neologist,

That can also happen in heaven?

So, heaven really isn't heaven, but another recycling of another earth to be repeated over and over and over and over.....

1 Reply

@mark noble,

mark noble wrote:

Rom 11:36

'For FROM Him and THROUGH Him and TO Him are ALL things'
Jesus is/was God on Earth (manifest) in christian doctrine.

Note 'ALL' Things are FROM Him..........'ALL THINGS', All thoughts, materials, events, effects, causes - ALL THINGS.

This is not a contest btw.
And Gods are ficticious.

Using 'fiction' to impeach 'fiction' makes little sense. As a point of information, the trinitarian doctrine is not supported by the 'fiction'. Jesus was not/ is not equivalent to God.

But even some trinitarians accept my argument for free will.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

That can also happen in heaven?

So, heaven really isn't heaven, but another recycling of another earth to be repeated over and over and over and over.....

What good is free will if it does not involve choice, including the choice to disrespect God?

Not that such a choice would end well for the chooser. But in Satan's case, the issues he raised could not be overlooked by God simply zapping him into oblivion.

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If reality really was ineffable people wouldn't be able to say it is ineffable...the problem is that it is not n so we have to listen the bullshit day in day out... Laughing

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@Fil Albuquerque,

...in fact it is pretty much like saying it is totally invisible...and yet to believe one can assert anything to it...that which one can't really see one don't speak of it.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Makes for good sci-fi.

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@mark noble,

Quote:

If the process loops indefinitely

And if it doesn't?

You guys are quite happy to dwell in the unprovable realm of metaphysics, but I see free will is a very practicle issue. If scientists are not free to think and compare their thinking to the facts through carefully thought-through scientific procedures, then the entire scientific project is at doubt. Infinity, loops, particles and neurons and **** are just illusions, if free will does not exist. Same with democracy, justice, and the economy. So let's not forget that every single step we take in real life presuposes it.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...in fact it is pretty much like saying it is totally invisible...and yet to believe one can assert anything to it...that which one can't really see one don't speak of it.

If it was invisible (or pretty much like it) it wouldn't be ineffable it would have the characteristic of being invisible (or pretty much like it) ... you don't comprehend the meaning of ineffable if you attach 'any' characteristic whatsoever... Fil.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
If the process loops indefinitely

And if it doesn't?

You guys are quite happy to dwell in the unprovable realm of metaphysics, but I see free will is a very practicle issue. If scientists are not free to think and compare their thinking to the facts through carefully thought-through scientific procedures, then the entire scientific project is at doubt. Infinity, loops, particles and neurons and **** are just illusions, if free will does not exist. Same with democracy, justice, and the economy. So let's not forget that every single step we take in real life presuposes it.

Of course it does... it has to.. or society unravels... but it doesn't make it true... and it isn't... it kinda works and that's good enough for day-to-day life.

1 Reply

@igm,

I suggest you go check ineffable in a dictionary because it literally means transcendent, inacessible, inexpressable...in other words invisible like...my remark only intends to show and it does how mystifying coinage can be deciving and self contradictory...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

...you people are a disgrace to the whole scientific endeavour of human knowledge...in fact what is ineffable is the degree of sheer stupidity giving a bad name to Philosophy due to the huge amount of bullshiters infesting the formal Academic medium related with Philosophy...thankfully there are alternatives...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...in other words invisible...

No Fil, that's incorrect... i.e. what appears is ineffable... but... mere appearance without characteristics is not being refuted. Words like transcendent and inexpressible do not remove that which appears... they hint at the quality of the ineffability of mere appearance.

I'm not trying to convince you... I'm just saying...

1 Reply

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