16
   

What is free will?

 
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:11 pm
@Logicus,
We are descended from apes and we feel as they do. It makes it hard to be dispassionate:



Sorry I am watching monkey movies...
Logicus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:18 pm
@tomr,
But we are not apes. We are an evolved species of them. We are capable of concealing and suppressing our emotions. Some of us don't even have them.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:37 pm
@Logicus,
No, it's not; I've already said a thousand times that we are limited by our genes and environment. Do you not understand what's included in those two definitions? You're only making your questions into mockery that ignores the standard definitions for gene and environment. I've tried to provide more "detail," but I can see I've failed in that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:39 pm
@tomr,
You get angry because you believe it's all predetermined, but not everyone reacts to the same stimuli as you do to get angry. Do you know why that is?
Logicus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Ah, moving on to the Ad Hominems. This is what I feared...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:55 pm
The most effective way to render intelligent people stupid is to get them into the most sophmoric of debates: free-will vs. determinism.
Logicus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 03:56 pm
@JLNobody,
Intelligence and stupidity are also perspectives.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 04:15 pm
@JLNobody,
Irrespective of the topic discussed, people should understand that world views are quite strongly engrained in people. You shouldn't expect, say, a determinist to suddenly wake up and see the undeterminist light as a result of a discussion on A2K... These type of epiphanies simply don't happen very often in life, so no need to get angry when people keep their position on A2K... ESPECIALLY if YOU never change your position!
(this is addressed to all, not to you personally JL)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 04:18 pm
@Logicus,
You wrote,
Quote:
Intelligence and stupidity are also perspectives.


They are subjective opinions.
Logicus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 04:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes. Maybe perspective wasn't the right term to convey my message. Apologies.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 05:06 pm
Here is a small stretch from Wikipedia that accounts for the modern dominant take on Indeterminism and free will:

Quote:
A different approach to the dilemma is that of incompatibilists, namely, that if the world is deterministic then, our feeling that we are free to choose an action is simply an illusion. Fundamental debate continues over whether the physical universe is in fact deterministic. Physical models offered at present are both deterministic and indeterministic, and are subject to interpretations of quantum mechanics - which themselves are being constrained by ongoing experimentation.[22] Yet even with physical indeterminism, arguments have been made against the feasibility of incompatibilist free will in that it is difficult to assign Origination (responsibility for "free" indeterministic choices).


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

Now of course what is laughable is that people are willing to say anything to save the day...the fact remains any attempt to reconcile Free will with Indeterministic models will need to address the problem of origination or as I prefer authorship.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 05:11 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
That you can post on a2k proves to me that you have some sense of authorship.

You use your own choice of words, it's meanings, opinions, and "conclusions."

Without your 'authorship,' you're only a figment of your own imagination.

The damn thing is, I can read your posts, and get the jest of what you're trying to say.

Mr. Green
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 05:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You get angry because you believe it's all predetermined, but not everyone reacts to the same stimuli as you do to get angry.

I don't really get angry because things are determined. I really am indifferent to that. The revelation of being determined changes nothing. Except that the ultimate cause of your choice is something beside you.
Quote:
Do you know why that is?

People do not act to the same stimuli as me because they are not me. They do not have the same experiences as me, and so they may not be conditioned to be angered by the same things as me.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 05:17 pm
@tomr,
Does that prove you have a mind of your own?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 05:19 pm
@Logicus,
You wrote,
Quote:
Ah, moving on to the Ad Hominems. This is what I feared...

Please cut and paste from any of my posts that is an ad hominem?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 05:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes one can believe one is the author of his actions if one follows a deterministic model on which causes lead to effects, its called compatiblist soft determinism...if one believes an indeterministic model Cic one has a problem with authorship. A random choice is not a conscious choice, is chance taking the choice out of your conscious hands n deciding in your place like the toss of a coin... note please that I am not saying I defend an Indeterministic model, I am saying to those who do defend indeterministic models that those models are incompatible with free will being traced back to a subject...rather for those who believe indeterminism is true, chance is the deciding factor, not subjects. Can you get it now ? Because this is a central problem you need to grasp, n that those who study free will must address...if you were in a free will exam would you be able to explain why there is a significant group, the vast majority of the well known free will experts, that believes Indeterminism is incompatible with free will ? What would you answer in an exam with such a question ? I am sorry but I just want to make sure you understand the argument...

In resume the question is:

Why does a very significant portion of the well established free will experts thinks Indeterminism is incompatible with free will ? Please state and justify their understanding.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 06:13 pm
Two-stage model of free will
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A two-stage model of free will separates the free stage from the will stage.
In the first stage, alternative possibilities for thought and action are generated, in part indeterministically.

In the second stage, an adequately determined will evaluates the options that have been developed.

If, on deliberation, one option for action seems best, it is selected and chosen. If no option seems good enough, and time permitting, the process can return to the further generation of alternative possibilities ("second thoughts") before a final decision.

A two-stage model can explain how an agent could choose to do otherwise in exactly the same circumstances that preceded the first stage of the overall free will process.

[...] The two-stage argument is designed to defeat the standard argument against free will. In that very simple and logical argument:

P1. Either determinism or indeterminism is true
P2. If determinism is true, we are not free.
P3. If indeterminism is true, our decisions are random and we lack responsibility.

In the first "free" stage of the two-stage model, the indeterminism is limited to the generation of alternative possibilities, it does not directly cause the willed decision, thus negating P2.

In the second "will" stage, the decision is not predetermined by events in the distant past, before the agent was born, indeed possibly back to the origin of the universe in the extreme determinism view.


[...] William James, Henri Poincaré, Arthur Holly Compton, Karl Popper, Daniel Dennett, Henry Margenau, Robert Kane, David Sedley and Anthony Long, Alfred Mele and Martin Heisenberg have all proposed two-stage models.

[...] Around 1906 Poincaré speculated on how his mind works when he is solving mathematical problems. He had the critical insight that random combinations and possibilities are generated, some in an unconscious way with chance involved, then they are selected among, perhaps initially also by an unconscious process, but then by a definite conscious process of validation.

Quote:
"It is certain that the combinations which present themselves to the mind in a kind of sudden illumination after a somewhat prolonged period of unconscious work are generally useful and fruitful combinations… all the combinations are formed as a result of the automatic action of the subliminal ego, but those only which are interesting find their way into the field of consciousness… A few only are harmonious, and consequently at once useful and beautiful, and they will be capable of affecting the geometrician's special sensibility I have been speaking of; which, once aroused, will direct our attention upon them, and will thus give them the opportunity of becoming conscious… In the subliminal ego, on the contrary, there reigns what I would call liberty, if one could give this name to the mere absence of discipline and to disorder born of chance."


[...] In his 1977 book with John Eccles, The Self and its Brain, Popper finally formulates the two-stage model in a temporal sequence, and makes the comparison with evolution and natural selection,

Quote:
New ideas have a striking similarity to genetic mutations. Now, let us look for a moment at genetic mutations. Mutations are, it seems, brought about by quantum theoretical indeterminacy (including radiation effects). Accordingly, they are also probabilistic and not in themselves originally selected or adequate, but on them there subsequently operates natural selection which eliminates inappropriate mutations. Now we could conceive of a similar process with respect to new ideas and to free-will decisions, and similar things.

That is to say, a range of possibilities is brought about by a probabilistic and quantum mechanically characterized set of proposals, as it were - of possibilities brought forward by the brain. On these there then operates a kind of selective procedure which eliminates those proposals and those possibilities which are not acceptable to the mind.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 06:21 pm
@Olivier5,
Comparison to biological evolution

Ernst Mayr called biological evolution a "two-step process", in which random variations in the gene pool are followed by law-like natural selection.[1]
Free will is also a two-stage creative process – first random and "free", then a lawful "will". First chance, then choice.

The mind's "two-stage" ability to be creative and free is likely evolved indirectly from Mayr's "two-step" process and then directly from the combination of random and lawlike behavior in the lower animals pointed out by Martin Heisenberg.[2] Free will is therefore not an ad hoc development in humans, as many philosophers (especially theologians) have thought. It is neither a gift from God nor a metaphysical mystery. It's a normal biological property that has evolved.
[emphasis added]

Getting from behavioral freedom in the lower animals to free will in humans has primarily involved significant changes in the complexity of the second stage – the selection process.

Although randomness may at all levels have the same source in chaotic thermal and quantal noise, we can note that the selection process itself has significantly evolved. So we can suggest different levels of selection (but note that each level organisms all using the earlier levels).

- Natural selection - for biological evolution, selection is reproductive success for a population.
-Instinctive selection - by animals with little or no learning capability. Selection criteria are transmitted genetically.
- Learned selection - for animals whose past experiences guide current choices. Selection criteria are acquired environmentally, including instruction by parents and peers.
- Predictive selection - using imagination and foresight to evaluate the future consequences of choices.
- Reflective and normative selection – in which conscious deliberation about cultural values influences the choice of behaviors.

Evolution has added more and more features over time that eventually become the many factors at work in the fully conscious human will.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stage_model_of_free_will
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 06:26 pm
@Olivier5,
Two stage model is not explanatory of free will...how can the two stage model justify in any stage when is determinism acting and not acting ? How can the 2 stage model know that the so called deterministic decision making is not due to undetermined coincidence ? Rather the 2 stage model is a poorly n now mostly abandon idea that cannot in any way clarify why is there determined and undetermined salad of events...it seams to suggest a substantive distinction between mental phenomena and physical phenomena, but it just so happens the vast majority of scientists and experts embrace the idea mind resides in the brain and thus that the brain being a physical object is subject to the exact same rules either of determinacy or indeterminacy other objects are...how can you have one substance, say matter n two different behaviours both deterministic and indeterministic ? By the exact same token QM is considered "weird" and fundamentally unsolved.
Logicus
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Jul, 2013 06:43 pm
@Olivier5,
Ooh. A Wikipedia entry. Why didn't I think of that before? Let's just get all of our answer from there. In fact, why don't we just get all of our answers from the Internet as a whole? That way, we don't have to think on our own.
 

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