What is free will?

To counter that example of the triangle you put up, 180*, shapes, numbers, all of the things you see in Mathematics, they are all symbols to something that exists in Nature. Sure, in Chinese one is a different symbol than the English way of writing 1, but they all represent the same thing, the idea of a singular entity.

I don't have a clue on what reaction you had to my writing of that post...if I tried to imagine or agree with my side house neighbour on what your reaction was regarding that post I am SURE that didn't change whatever reaction you had...in fact YOU couldn't change the reaction you had it just did happened...

I agree that chance exists, but chance can be manipulated. To reduce the chance of car accidents, you would destroy all cars and roads. The chance goes down. If you want one person to win the lottery, you would take steps to prevent others from buying a lottery ticket. So in that sense, chance doesn't exist, because people can control it.

I am not saying chance is the case or is not the case...it MIGHT be the case of being a valid model of the world just as determinism can be one, I don't know...what I am saying is that a model for free will based on chance makes no sense, because chance rather then you, is making the choices, and thus therefore that authorship of will sensibly REQUIRES a deterministic model of the world.

Then we agree. I think.

But I've already stated that our genes and our environment are the controlling factors of our lives. That includes societies, governments, politics, and everything you are exposed to every day of your life. Beyond those constraints, and even with those constraints, we can still do anything we wish.

It's a matter of accepting the consequences of our choice; it's still "free will" on the actor's part.

If genes and our biology control our lives, how is that free will? Even you used the term, "constraints". That implies you have limitations, and that means you cannot have free will.

Of coarse books have authors in addition to printers, publishers, sellers, and readers. We can "choose" to read almost any book within our environment/access. All shouts "free will/choice."

Yes, unless you were in Soviet Russia where they did not allow books about Democracy to be read. Or if you live in a Third-World country where books are rare.

Environment. However, even when there are tyrannical governments that tries to control everybody, it's impossible to control 100% of the population on anything. It only goes underground.

But to the percentage that are controlled, you would say they still had free will?

To the degree that they are allowed; no government can control any person's life 24/7 without putting them into isolation.

Then what if they were put in isolation? Would you still say they had free will?

Oh I see... You of course are willing to lose an argument, right? And not arrogant in the least of course. You keep insulting people who disagree with you, but that's okay 'cause you don't have free will, while the Frenchman is guilty as charged because we know those lazy French, right?... <smirk>

By the way, your latest argument - which you finally deigned to explain in an English that would pass in primary school - is ludicrous. You can have authorship of your choices (cause them, at least in part) without a determinist universe around. Undeterminism does not imply the absence of cause-and-effect relations. It just says that such relations do not determine the world 100%.

And you can co-author your thoughts with chance, too, together with other factors...

You see, in the mind of simpletons like me, several causes or factors can contribute to the same effect. Is that possible in your world, where infinity is a circle, motion is an illusion, and human beings are robots?...

They have free will within the boundaries of the cell. They can think, imagine, dream, scream, sing, dance, and talk to themselves.

True, but you're definition of free will is becoming more limited as the environments get more restrictive. So what if they became a vegetable, living but not thinking or moving? Then aren't they totally out of their capability of free will?

Then, don't commit any crime, and stay out of countries that limits your freedoms. Simple.

That's all part of free will.

So, you agree Human vegetables cannot have free will? Then doesn't that apply to all other Humans, because they always have the potential to be put in statis?

True I am forced to think the way I do, but it doesn't bother me because I don't think I am special. Debate is a fine thing, but it hardly moves mountains. As a deterministic robot I am determined to be angry then that's how I am (sometimes).


I don't like the troll word. I have been called a troll and I didn't like it. It also gets tossed around too readily. So you're no troll to me. There are some smart low-brows out there so I take that as a compliment.




I wish I could do better. Honestly being determined sucks!!!

If everyone could view these discussions from a cold, and detached manner, these debates could be more productive. Alas, Human nature will not allow that.