What is free will?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Indeed, maybe I'm too stupid to understand your argument. Let's do a survey. Did anyone else get what Fil was talking about? If yes, could you try and explain it to a fool like me? Many thanks...

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Like, could anyone explain that sentence to me, or perhaps insert the punctuation needed for the text to become meaningful? This is not a joke, I am truly at a loss.

Quote:

"the reasoning under the assumption that there is a probability my mind is creating or not creating the thought I am experiencing right now...either I did it or I cannot establish I am willing anything."

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@tomr,

Since I'm an atheist, it has nothing to do with religious' belief.
I can go along with "it's all guess work," but it's our guess work. Whether it's right or wrong, good or bad, it's our choice to make - ergo, free will.

What I'm observing here is that we are all talking past each other.

Fil wrote,

Quote:

Free will IS an explanatory model and a well know deterministic one.

He leaps from "free will is a model" to ". and a well known deterministic one."

You still haven't explained how free will is "deterministic" in language I nor Olivier can understand.

When I make choices, ergo, free will, how is that deterministic? Even I don't know what I'll be doing later today. If it's deterministic, how so? Please explain by using my example of "what I'll do later today."

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

What I'm observing here is that we are all talking past each other.

Ain't that a fact!

I'm sick and tired of these idiots who think of themselves as geniuses but CAN'T EVEN WRITE A DECENTLY CONSTRUCTED SENTENCE IN THEIR OWN NATIVE ******* LANGUAGE!!!

Indeed, they probably don't have free will. That's the only charitable explanation I can find for their piss-poor arguments.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

I think you are pretty incredible too, Tom, in your own way. You start this discussion like a normal discussion, and then post after post, you become more and more aggressive and contemptuous. Why? Is that a problem for you if I don't share your opinions, or is your aggressiveness a sign of despair?

You can repeat your reductionist mantra as much as you want, I am still entitled to my opinion. Sorry if that bothers you.

These free will threads must be new to you. That's how they go. You come in and everything is fine... O cool I like thinking about philosophy and debating. But they always end in contempt. If everything was hunky dory all the time then there would be no debate and no honest motivations. No personal offense to you its just part of the game. (And it does bother me slightly that you believe in free will because I can see you are an intelligent person. And all my efforts to enlighten you are like shits in the toilet.)

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Since I'm an atheist, it has nothing to do with religious' belief.
I can go along with "it's all guess work," but it's our guess work. Whether it's right or wrong, good or bad, it's our choice to make - ergo, free will.

I know you don't have to believe in god to believe in free will. But free will is like a religious belief for the reasons I gave.

1 Reply

@tomr,

Since it was claimed there is one, I am still waiting for an argument for free will which is not deterministic in nature and that simultaneously can attribute will to subjects, that is, a deterministic causal relation between willing and the subject that causes the willing...a contradiction in terms... Laughing

...you are giving far to much credit to the troll...this is not the first time when he is about to lose an argument he goes on rampage...check him out if you care... Wink

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@tomr,

Here's a question for you that I posted above for Fil.

Quote:

When I make choices, ergo, free will, how is that deterministic? Even I don't know what I'll be doing later today. If it's deterministic, how so? Please explain by using my example of "what I'll do later today."

What's predetermined?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Yes, this is what I am stating. Other people limit us in terms of free will. If the government tells you to do something, you do it. If your parents tell you to do something, you do it. Society is the main counterpoint to free will.

1 Reply

@tomr,

Quote:

And it does bother me slightly that you believe in free will because I can see you are an intelligent person. And all my efforts to enlighten you are like shits in the toilet.

If you and I don't have free will, you can't think about the issue in any other way than you do now, and I can't either, period. There's no point in debating, no enlightening, and no point in getting angry either.

As Fil rightly pointed out, I'm just a stupid troll unable to understand. Leave it at that. That's where I leave the discussion... You guys are just a bunch of low-brow, lobotomized dummies without free will.

I take your word for it: you don;t have free will, and just can't do better than that. :-)

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@cicerone imposter,

Either you, the subject Cic, are the CAUSE of your choice and thus there is a deterministic relation between you and a choice arising in your Consciousness or you are not the cause of your choice but merely a witness of how choices arise in your brain in a indeterministic way.
Free will best know n best credit models base the argument on soft determinism...please go check it.

Determinism is the explanatory model of the functioning of the world which establishes relations of CAUSE n EFFECT, that is, that to a given cause, an immediate effect follows...for instance that You are the cause of your willing opposed to willing simply randomly come up in your mind. On which case it has no authorship.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

And I also sure that what you're posting on a2k are based on

Quote:

You are the cause of your willing opposed to willing simply randomly come up in your mind. On which case it has no authorship.

You don't exist.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

No you are not stupid by any means, you are just arrogant and unwilling to lose an argument, or unwilling to address valid remarks, n that is what makes you look stupid...hadn't you start marching upon my English when I had a valid point, that was a low coward shift n bait move, I would have patiently n politely keep repeating the argument yet another 5 or 6 times, because I do like people get points across, it makes me happy.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I believe an Ad Hominem is not necessary for this argument, sir.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Would you claim a book (or a single word, a statistical easier probability) written by chance typing in a machine has author ? If not why would it be different in your mind ? Do you have a compelling reason ???

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@Logicus,

What Ad Hominem was not legitimate ? go check the bait n shift low ball to evade a tough remark before you go on pointing fingers please...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Well, since the machine had to be created by someone, I would say the author would be the mechanic who made the machine. Unless I do not understand your point here.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

What happened ? ....that "communication" took place in a common (agreed) language ?....that an episode of "social dancing" occurred ?....and if I had been hit by a train preventing me from checking the website would there have been "an event" at all ?

No observers...no "IT". Different observers...potentially different "ITs".

Even the assumption that we agree that "it is the case that the angles of a triangle total 180 degrees" depends on covert cultural agreements that we are doing Euclidean as opposed to non-Euclidean geometry, and that we are using agreed terms like "degrees".

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@Logicus,

The author of the machine would be the mechanic if he did make the machine but the author of the word, sentence, or book randomly written would be CHANCE not anyone !

1 Reply

What is free will?

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