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How many people has the United States killed in your lifetime?

 
 
husker
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 03:07 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Can I just estimate over 53million people will die in the world this year
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 06:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
To the best of your knowledge, how many people has America killed in your lifetime?

In trying to answer this question, I discovered that the best of my knowledge is surprisingly vague. Good research would require that I read several good books on the issue, which is more effort than I'm willing to put in right now. For a first-pass estimate, I assume that America did the lion's share of her killings during her wars, neglect all the killings outside of those wars, believe Wikipedia's numbers, and assume that each war killed the same number of people per year. (The Vietnam War started in 1962, ended in 1975, and I was born in 1969. So I'm multiplying total North Vietnamese casualties by 7/13.) Oh, and one more thing: I stop after adding the major wars: Vietnam, Iraq I and II, and Afghanistan. Foreign casualties in the other wars are less than the margin of error for estimating the big ones. So here goes. . . .

Code:
War Casualties (x 1000) Running total
Vietnam 673 (*) 673
Iraq I 30 703
Iraq II 33 736
Afghanistan 40 776
----------------------------------------------------------
(*) 1,250,000 over 13 years, multiplied by 7/13 as discussed.

Given the margins of errors among Wikipedia's various sources, I'd say it's 780,000 people killed by the United States since January 1969, give or take twenty percent.
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 06:38 pm
@Thomas,
I admit I'm not up to the challenge for a total, at least not fast, and I don't want to devote time I need to be spending on other things to do this.
I'll agree with the underlying point, the u.s. has killed very many people.
Further, some of them don't like it.

I'll be back if and when I find what happened when we did what, where, by whatever manner, to post some take on our efforts in those circumstances.
Just isolating one place and figuring it out is a piece of work. I have not routinely been for what we were up to.




gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 06:45 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
[I'll agree with the underlying point, the u.s. has killed very many people.
Further, some of them don't like it./quote]

I assume we are referencing the ones with unsettled debt?
wandeljw
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:18 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I'll agree with the underlying point, the u.s. has killed very many people.
Further, some of them don't like it.


Gus called attention to this part of your post, osso. Did you actually intend to say that?
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:19 pm
@gustavratzenhofer,
No.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:30 pm
@wandeljw,
Of course, I certainly intended to say that.
I've lived a life of naturally being strongly against most/I'd have to review all, but most all of u.s. adventures, aggressions, involvements, engagement, whatever the descriptions.

I've posted off an on, I suppose emotionally, as being against bombs. I'm also freaked about drones. I get drones are a neat weapon, but they totally chill me and our using them in other countries territories only ramps my anger, since I hate them in the first place.

But wait, your question is violating the thread mores.
wandeljw
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:33 pm
@ossobuco,
I meant the way the second sentence followed the first sentence.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:38 pm
@wandeljw,
Me, I'm interested in your thinking behind your "zero" conclusion to Robert's question, wandel. Seriously, I'd be interested to know.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:42 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

ossobuco wrote:
I'll agree with the underlying point, the u.s. has killed very many people.
Further, some of them don't like it.



People don't like being killed or otherwise battered. What is hard for you to get re the connection of the first and second sentences?

I remember a repost from me to George Ob, would he like being hit by a drone. No link, of course. Drones are the closest I can get to a word I don't like, evil.
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 07:53 pm
@ossobuco,
Reminds me of a boyfriend in the late sixties, before he drove his decrepit car cross country to join the marines - he was, in a letter, hoping not to be horribly killed or injured. (Hard to explain, he was playing on words even then and I didn't quote him right.)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 08:25 pm
After yesterdays effort (which took a long time), I've decided to take another tack on answering the question.
Yesterday I got bogged down with finding evidence of numbers (or acceptable estimates of them) through research, at the expense of bigger issues, I think.
I don't think it can be disputed that "millions" have been killed by the US (say nothing of at the hands of other countries ... but this particular question is about the US).
The more important question to me is what sort of attitudes, laws, actions, etc, has led to all those deaths in my lifetime?

And also, when we say "the US" , what do we mean? I'm including government actions & policies, the policies & actions of US businesses & to a certain extent, the attitudes of (some, not necessarily all) US citizens .....

Anyway, I've just compiled a list of as many causes of deaths I can think of which I believe can be attributed, directly or indirectly, to the US. Of course, it can be argued that I'm making some judgments here based on my own values & you might disagree with with some entries on the basis of your values. Your list might be quite different to mine, but we're not here to argue the pros & cons of each others' values. It is more important to consider the reasons, priorities, the implications & the sheer scale of all those deaths, I think.
(I don't think I've expressed that very well. I hope you get my drift.)

Anyway, here's my list of deaths caused during my lifetime.:


• Deaths caused directly by US invasions & US involvements in wars ... including Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc...... I would include WW2, if I was born a bit earlier...
• Deaths caused as a result of US arms sales to other countries
• Deaths caused by “leaders” of poor, under-developed countries purchasing US arms for regional wars at the expense of the needs of their people (like food, healthcare, provision for clean water, etc)
• Deaths caused by US influence in the UN, in support of US policy at the expense of humanitarian objectives .... eg a ban on landmines
• Deaths to troops from allied countries supporting US foreign policies (like in Afghanistan & Iraq)
• Deaths caused by embargos imposed by the US/UN on particular countries limiting supplies of food, medicines, etc (eg Iraq during the Gulf War)
• Deaths caused by US produced/ used chemicals like Agent Orange ... (both to US & allied troops & the citizens in which these chemicals were used.)
• Deaths caused by “trials” of US drugs & treatments on citizens of poor countries & vulnerable US citizens. eg http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/09/01/syphilis-experiments-shock-but-so-do-third-world-drug-trials/
• Deaths caused by the sale of unsafe products by US businesses to third world countries .... like pesticides & infant formulas by US pharmaceutical companies.
• Deaths & suicides of soldiers involved in US initiated wars as a result of inadequate post-combat treatment of conditions like PTSD ... this would not be limited to US troops & their allies, but “enemy” troops, too.
• Deaths caused by US financial & diplomatic support of repressive regimes, like Chile, Guatemala, Indonesia, etc
• Deaths caused by CIA “covert operations” in countries such as Guatemala, Nicaragua, the Bay of Pigs, etc
• Deaths caused by the sale of unsafe US products to third world countries ... like medications that have been banned in the US .
• The application of death penalty on US prisoners.
• Premature death to some poor US citizens due to the high cost of health care. (speculating here on the basis of anecdotal evidence, as I don’t live in the US)
• Deaths as a result of the ease of access guns in the US ... US gun laws
• Deaths caused by unsafe practices by US corporations in other countries ... eg the Bhopal disaster in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
• Deaths caused by US assassinations. eg Osama Bin Laden, drone attacks on suspected “enemies” in Yemen & Pakistan, etc
• Deaths caused by “Big Pharma” profit motives, which has made the control of Aids extremely difficult in the poorest countries in the world (which most need it) , like Zimbabwe & South Africa & countries in central America.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?id=1903


--
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 09:07 pm
@msolga,
You're better at this and thank you for it.
Stugotz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 09:18 pm
This is an "interesting read"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 10:24 pm
@ossobuco,
From the opening post, I knew we count on her.
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 10:28 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Sorry...I'm going to have to leave figues here as I find them....ignore my posts until I reach a sum.

Prisoners in US prisons since 1976....1,270.

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 10:31 pm
@roger,
?

Sorry?
What does that mean? Confused
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 11:22 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
In trying to answer this question, I discovered that the best of my knowledge is surprisingly vague.


I admit to both having had the same feeling as well as having wanted to spread that precise realization.

Quote:
Oh, and one more thing: I stop after adding the major wars: Vietnam, Iraq I and II, and Afghanistan. Foreign casualties in the other wars are less than the margin of error for estimating the big ones.


This is a point I wish all the other quibbling would have considered. Most of the quibbling would have been at rounding-error levels too.

Lastly, I want to point out that your numbers seem to have excluded all civillian deaths and only counted the soldiers that America has killed. Given your expressed criteria I think this is an oversight.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2011 11:25 pm
@roger,
Answering myself, to the question I asked of you, Roger.

(To get this out of the way, so we can continue to pursue the thrust of this thread without further distractions ....)

My comments here are based on my observations/research of cause & effect .... what the (broadly defined) US has done to cause deaths outside & within the US.

I apply exactly the same criteria to what my own country has done. I doubt that you've ever read my posts to the Oz election thread, because if you had, you would be aware that what you might perceive as anti-US criticisms, are not all that much different to my "criticisms" of actions initiated by my own country.
A lot of it has to do with human rights. Most of it, actually.

So, I would appreciate it, if you are going to say things like: "from the opening post, I knew we could count on her" ... then I wish you had the guts to back up a statement like that when questioned about it. Rather than just making snide comments.

That's all I want to say.

Can we get back onto the thread topic now?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 12:21 am
Leaving this thread now.

It seems such a waste of the time & effort, with so little response to the amount of time & effort involved in responding to such a difficult question.
0 Replies
 
 

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