20
   

Why are Jews hated by so many people?

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 10:16 pm
Good stuff CI!
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 10:23 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Column Left | posted April 16, 2002 (web only)
Sharon Wears Oppressor's Cloak
Robert Scheer


What is the fundamental difference between Slobodan Milosevic and Ariel Sharon? The former is on trial for war crimes, while the latter still leads an occupying army.

For those already loosing angry e-mails from their quivers, I ask you to take a few minutes to consider the comparison before rushing to defend Sharon's scorched-earth march through the West Bank as a necessary response to the terrorists that Yasser Arafat either condones or has been too gutless to stop.

Milosevic, like Sharon, cited the terror tactics of neighboring peoples--Croatians, Bosnians and ethnic Albanians who stood in the way of his vision of a secure Yugoslavia--as a rationale for preemptive use of massive military force against them. An occupied people can get ugly in their resistance, unless a near-saint such as Mohandas Gandhi or Nelson Mandela leads the movement away from mayhem while winning political victories. Arafat is anything but a saint, and there is much blood on his hands. But it is always the occupier, with the big guns and control of the real estate, that holds the real keys to reconciliation.





Rarely does such an occupation end voluntarily; land is exchanged for peace only when the occupiers feel there is no other choice. Both the plan laid out by former US Senator George Mitchell and the recent Saudi-inspired Arab League peace proposal offered such an option, but Sharon would not accept it anymore than Milosevic would the compromises presented to him up to the end of the Yugoslavia wars.

Instead, both have sought to destroy any momentum toward peace by waging war.

Sharon has humiliated President Bush, not only by ignoring his demand for a withdrawal but by co-opting the president's war-on-terrorism code phrases as cover for his drive to prevent--forever, if possible--a Palestinian state. How simple it would be if only the "axis of evil" targeted civilians, but from Saddam Hussein to Hamas to Sharon, nobody in the Mideast conflagration has a monopoly on such cruelty.

By blasting through West Bank towns, possibly burying children in their wake, the once-proud Israel Defense Forces is heading down toward the moral level of suicide bombers.

Whatever is ultimately discovered about the carnage committed by Israel's forces, enough is known to implicate Sharon for a form of ethnic cleansing--purposefully destroying the Palestinians' ability to govern themselves. The systematic destruction of the signposts of nascent Palestinian statehood--statistics bureaus, education ministries, electricity and water supplies--is aimed at further uprooting a refugee population.

Despite stereotypes, Serbs did not start out as oppressive occupiers any more than did Israelis; both their peoples suffered terribly during World War II and sought peace within secure borders. However, the historical insecurity of both peoples has led them into the role of oppressor, feeding a cycle of resistance and repression.

This is the opposite of what the idealistic Zionists who founded Israel had in mind. They always knew that the ultimate test of the new state would not be merely its ability to survive but rather its ability to survive with democratic values intact.

Almost 70% of Israel's officer corps in the 1967 Six-Day War had been raised in the idealism of the kibbutz movement. They deemed justice a universal right--even for Palestinians.

Of course, an Arab world that long refused to accept and guarantee Israel's right to exist did much to kill that idealism. Yet Israel's decision to keep the captured territories has ultimately boomeranged, drastically undermining its democracy and stability.

"If Israel does not find the way to disengage from the Palestinians, its future might resemble the experience of Belfast or Bosnia--two communities bleeding each other to death for generations," said former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak this week in an op-ed article. "Alternatively, if we do not disengage from the Palestinians, Israel might drift toward an apartheid state."

Unfortunately, under the heavy hand of Barak's successor Israel already is an apartheid state. This may be what Sharon and Arafat prefer to the Camp David compromise, but it represents the deepest betrayal of the interests of both the Palestinians and Jews.


I've been to Israel and witnessed the oppression of the Palestinians. Where do you get your information?

Depends upon whom you are addressing.
However, I would suggest perhaps that "your information" was gotten by a simple, accurate reading of history, rather than the absolutist bullshit you appear to be advocating.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 10:41 pm
What bullshit am I advocating?
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:33 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
What bullshit am I advocating?

The viewpoint you presented in the above screed.
It is prejudicially slanderous and inaccurate, to say the least.
0 Replies
 
Tigershark
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:39 am
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html

"There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 10:15 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
What bullshit am I advocating?

The viewpoint you presented in the above screed.
It is prejudicially slanderous and inaccurate, to say the least.



If that article is slanderous and inaccurate, it's up to you to point out why. Otherwise, your quibble means absolutely nothing.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:26 pm
Chumly wrote:
A solution to the problem might to restructure the nuclear family to embrace a world without borders.

It can be argued that technology has produced the global-village and that technologies will continue to fray Man's 'pack-mentality'.

In specificity: if all Palestinian were well educated and had good access to the Internet, there well might be a sea change in Middle Eastern dynamics.

Given the exorbitant costs of ignorance and given the deadly implications of a myopic nuclear family mind-set, my solution is imminently practical however unlikely it might appear.


Chumly, i honestly think you just solved every world problem in one paragraph.

the internet, and good family and good manners, will save the world! really though. its our best shot IMO!
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:59 pm
Amidst thunderous applause and a standing ovation, Chumly steps up to the podium and modestly accepts the Nobel Peace Prize for saving the world.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 02:02 pm
clap clap clap clap clap clap CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP...
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 08:49 pm
For the benefit of cicerone impostor:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Column Left | posted April 16, 2002 (web only)
Sharon Wears Oppressor's Cloak
Robert Scheer


What is the fundamental difference between Slobodan Milosevic and Ariel Sharon? The former is on trial for war crimes, while the latter still leads an occupying army.

Argumentum ad hominem. Milosevic is a war criminal. Therefore Sharon is a war criminal.
False and unsubstantiated. The comparison is without merit.
Quote:
For those already loosing angry e-mails from their quivers, I ask you to take a few minutes to consider the comparison before rushing to defend Sharon's scorched-earth march through the West Bank as a necessary response to the terrorists that Yasser Arafat either condones or has been too gutless to stop.

Same as above.
"Scorched earth" being a false comparison designed to bring up images of real "scorched earth" campaigns such as Sherman's March to Atlanta or the Russian campaign against Napoleon.

Thus far the author has evoked prejudicial imagery to impugn Sharon without offering any factual data whatsoever.


Quote:
Milosevic, like Sharon, cited the terror tactics of neighboring peoples--Croatians, Bosnians and ethnic Albanians who stood in the way of his vision of a secure Yugoslavia--as a rationale for preemptive use of massive military force against them. An occupied people can get ugly in their resistance, unless a near-saint such as Mohandas Gandhi or Nelson Mandela leads the movement away from mayhem while winning political victories. Arafat is anything but a saint, and there is much blood on his hands. But it is always the occupier, with the big guns and control of the real estate, that holds the real keys to reconciliation.

More of the same bullshit. Opinion mixed with inaccurate comparisons.
Final statement being a "feel good" assumption that is easily disproved throughout history from the Battle of Thermopylae to the Roman conquest of Germania to the Crusades to Napoleon to the establishment of Israel to the present War on Islamic Fascism.
It's a silly, ignorant statement designed to bolster a totally unsupported argument.
Quote:
Rarely does such an occupation end voluntarily; land is exchanged for peace only when the occupiers feel there is no other choice. Both the plan laid out by former US Senator George Mitchell and the recent Saudi-inspired Arab League peace proposal offered such an option, but Sharon would not accept it anymore than Milosevic would the compromises presented to him up to the end of the Yugoslavia wars.

More mindless, irrelevant comparisons. "Rarely does such an occupation end voluntarily" is again an emotionally laden bit of nonsense.
Define rarely. Because such occupations end voluntarily all the time, throughout history.
Or define "such an occupation." Perhaps the author is singling out either Israel or Serbia, which then defeats the generalization of "such an occupation." As compared to what?
Or define "end voluntarily." Give other such cases where occupation has not ended voluntarily or where it has.
The author is using empty rhetoric.

Quote:
Instead, both have sought to destroy any momentum toward peace by waging war.

Examples? Data? Anything whatsoever? In other words, bullshit.

Quote:
Sharon has humiliated President Bush,

O' the Humiliation. The incredible insult and degradation that our President, whom I am sure that the author reveres, has suffered!

cicerone impostor - I can only assume that you are not an idiot, but have a decidedly anti-Israel bias. Fine. I have a decidedly pro-Israel bias.
But, as you are most probably not an idiot, you do not really believe the above puerile crap to be true, you simply like the way it flows in its generalized attack on the now comatose Sharon and tars him in a nebulous manner with the brush of monstrosity.
Your viewpoint is probably such that; Sharon was a monster; ergo, this author's comparisons must be true.
This is rather muddy logic and, by extension shows an ad hominem reasoning to "hate the Jews" on your part....
Anyway, having not written here in so very long, I shall endeavor to continue my slog through this little mind...

Quote:
not only by ignoring his demand for a withdrawal but by co-opting the president's war-on-terrorism code phrases as cover for his drive to prevent--forever, if possible--a Palestinian state.

Hmmm... Author wrote too soon. Should have waited until after Gaza? Or perhaps author denies the reality of Gaza? Certainly author does not accept the idea that Israel "withdrew" from southern Lebanon. It would appear that said author would be most happy with Israel's withdrawal from Israel... Rolling Eyes

Quote:
How simple it would be if only the "axis of evil" targeted civilians, but from Saddam Hussein to Hamas to Sharon, nobody in the Mideast conflagration has a monopoly on such cruelty.

By blasting through West Bank towns, possibly burying children in their wake, the once-proud Israel Defense Forces is heading down toward the moral level of suicide bombers.

Blah, blah, blah... Prove it dickwad. Didn't happen. Not in this reality.
False suppositions passed off as authoritative assertions.

Quote:
Whatever is ultimately discovered about the carnage committed by Israel's forces, enough is known to implicate Sharon for a form of ethnic cleansing--purposefully destroying the Palestinians' ability to govern themselves. The systematic destruction of the signposts of nascent Palestinian statehood--statistics bureaus, education ministries, electricity and water supplies--is aimed at further uprooting a refugee population.

And what was ultimately discovered, eh? Does the author offer a similarly apologetic piece groveling in abasement for his unfounded and slanderous accusations?
No ethnic cleansing took place.
The Gazans are currently self-governing in Hamasistan. Refugee population is currently dealing with surging back and forth into Egypt. Hmmm... Paradigm shift acknowledged elsewhere? I suspect not.


Quote:
Despite stereotypes, Serbs did not start out as oppressive occupiers any more than did Israelis; both their peoples suffered terribly during World War II and sought peace within secure borders. However, the historical insecurity of both peoples has led them into the role of oppressor, feeding a cycle of resistance and repression.

What utter and absolute mindless crap. Please evidence solid data; figures; populations; geography; history; or any other reliable piece of information that gives accuracy to this comparison.
Emotional drivel.

Quote:
This is the opposite of what the idealistic Zionists who founded Israel had in mind. They always knew that the ultimate test of the new state would not be merely its ability to survive but rather its ability to survive with democratic values intact.

Almost 70% of Israel's officer corps in the 1967 Six-Day War had been raised in the idealism of the kibbutz movement. They deemed justice a universal right--even for Palestinians.

Of course, an Arab world that long refused to accept and guarantee Israel's right to exist did much to kill that idealism. Yet Israel's decision to keep the captured territories has ultimately boomeranged, drastically undermining its democracy and stability.

And the alternative was? ....... C'mon, there must have been some alternative.... Hmmm? Oh. No. I guess there wasn't. Which makes the phrase "Israel's decision to keep the captured territories" rather moot.

Quote:
"If Israel does not find the way to disengage from the Palestinians, its future might resemble the experience of Belfast or Bosnia--two communities bleeding each other to death for generations," said former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak this week in an op-ed article. "Alternatively, if we do not disengage from the Palestinians, Israel might drift toward an apartheid state."

Beautiful. An actual statement. Of course, I disagree. (It is difficult to agree with anything a man named Barak might say - very prejudicial on my part.) Mr. Barak's statement would only prove accurate in the context of viewing Israel and the Arabs called Palestinians as isolated from the rest of the world at large, particularly from the Muslim and Arab world.
But, they are not. If the IRA had a billion plus Catholic and Irish/English sympathizers funding and sympathizing with them while at the same time trying to achieve world dominance across the globe, they would not only not have brokered a peace, they would more than likely be the dominant force in all of Ireland and perhaps England.
The comparisons are specious and inaccurate.

Quote:
Unfortunately, under the heavy hand of Barak's successor Israel already is an apartheid state. This may be what Sharon and Arafat prefer to the Camp David compromise, but it represents the deepest betrayal of the interests of both the Palestinians and Jews.

I've been to Israel and witnessed the oppression of the Palestinians. Where do you get your information?

Silly crap.
I get my information from real history, not made up opinions that are without substance.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 10:10 pm
I'll only respond to your first challenge about Ariel Sharon. There's no adhominem there; only your imagination.

From CounterPunch: (This is only a partial list. It's up to you to find it false.)

February 7, 2001
Return of the Terrorist
The Crimes
of Ariel Sharon

Some incorrigible optimists have suggested that only a right-wing extremist of the notoriety of Likud leader Ariel Sharon will have the credentials to broker any sort of lasting settlement with the Palestinians. Maybe so. History is not devoid of such examples. But Sharon?

Sharon's history offers a monochromatic record of moral corruption, with a documented record of war crimes going back to the early 1950s. He was born in 1928 and as a young man joined the Haganah, the underground military organization of Israel in its pre-state days. In 1953 he
was given command of Unit 101, whose mission is often described as that of retaliation against Arab attacks on Jewish villages. In fact, as can be seen from two terrible onslaughts, one of them very well known, Unit 101's purpose was that of instilling terror by the infliction of discriminate, murderous violence not only on able bodied fighters but on the young, the old, the helpless.

Sharon's first documented sortie in this role was in August of 1953 on the refugee camp of El-Bureig, south of Gaza. An Israeli history of the 101 unit records 50 refugees as having been killed; other sources allege 15 or 20. Major-General Vagn Bennike, the UN commander, reported that "bombs were thrown" by Sharon's men "through the windows of huts in which the refugees were sleeping and, as they fled, they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons".

In October of 1953 came the attack by Sharon's unit 101 on the Jordanian village of Qibya, whose "stain" Israel's foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett, confided to his diary "would stick to us and not be washed away for many years". He was wrong. Though even strongly pro-Israel commentators in the West compared it to Lidice, Qibya and Sharon's role are scarcely evoked in the West today, least of all by journalists such as Deborah Sontag of the New York Times who recently wrote a whitewash of Sharon, describing him as "feisty", or the
Washington Post's man in Jerusalem who fondly invoked him after his fateful excursion to the Holy Places in Jerusalem as "the portly old warrior".

Israeli historian Avi Shlaim describes the massacre thus: "Sharon's order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. His success in carrying out the order surpassed all expectations. The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was
revealed only during the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they believed that all the inhabitants had run away and that they had no idea that anyone was hiding inside the houses."

The UN observer on the scene reached a different conclusion: "One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshhold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them." The slaughter in Qibya was described contemporaneously in a letter to the president of the United Nations Security Council dated 16 October 1953 (S/3113) from the Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Jordan to the United States. On 14 October 1953 at 9:30 at night, he wrote, Israeli troops launched a battalion-scale attack on the village of Qibya in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (at the time the West Bank was annexed to Jordan).

According to the diplomat's account, Israeli forces had entered the village and systematically murdered all occupants of houses, using automatic weapons, grenades and incendiaries. On 14 October, the bodies of 42 Arab civilians had been recovered; several more bodies were still under the wreckage. Forty houses, the village school and a reservoir had been destroyed. Quantities of unused explosives, bearing Israel army markings in Hebrew, had been found in the village. At about 3 a.m., to cover their withdrawal, Israeli support troops had begun shelling the
neighbouring villages of Budrus and Shuqba from positions in Israel.

And what of Sharon's conduct when he was head of the Southern Command of Israel's Defense Forces in the early 1970s? The Gaza "clearances" were vividly described by Phil Reeves in a piece in The London Independent on January 21 of this year.

"Thirty years have elapsed since Ariel Sharon, favourite to win Israel's forthcoming election, was the head of the Israel Defence Forces' southern command, charged with the task of 'pacifying' the recalcitrant Gaza Strip after the 1967 war. But the old men still remember it well. Especially the old men on Wreckage Street. Until late 1970, Wreckage, or Had'd, Street wasn't a street, just one of scores of narrow, nameless alleys weaving through Gaza City's Beach Camp, a shantytown cluttered with low, two-roomed houses, built with UN aid for refugees from the 1948 war who then, as now, were waiting for the international community to settle their future. The street acquired its name after an unusually prolonged visit from Mr Sharon's soldiers. Their orders were to bulldoze hundreds of homes to carve a wide, straight street. This would allow Israeli troops and their heavy armored vehicles to move easily through the camp, to exert control and hunt down men from the Palestinian Liberation Army.

"'They came at night and began marking the houses they wanted to demolish with red paint,' said Ibrahim Ghanim, 70, a retired labourer. 'In the morning they came back, and ordered everyone to leave. I remember all the soldiers shouting at people, Yalla, yalla, yalla, yalla! They threw everyone's belongings into the street. Then Sharon brought in bulldozers and started flattening the street. He did the whole lot, almost in one day. And the soldiers would beat people, can you imagine? Soldiers with guns, beating little kids!' By the time the Israeli army's work was done, hundreds of homes were destroyed, not only on Wreckage Street but throughout the camp, as Sharon ploughed out a grid of wide security roads. Many of the refugees took shelter in schools, or squeezed into the already badly over-crowded homes of relatives. Other families, usually those with a Palestinian political activist, were loaded into trucks and taken to exile in a town in the heart of the Sinai Desert, then controlled by Israel."

As Reeves reported, the devastation of Beach Camp was far from the exception. "In August 1971 alone, troops under Mr Sharon's command destroyed some 2,000 homes in the Gaza Strip, uprooting 16,000 people for the second time in their lives. Hundreds of young Palestinian men were arrested and deported to Jordan and Lebanon. Six hundred relatives of suspected guerrillas were exiled to Sinai. In the second half of 1971, 104 guerrillas were assassinated. 'The policy at that time was not to arrest suspects, but to assassinate them', said Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza City".

If you like, I can provide other sources concerning Ariel Sharon's past.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Feb, 2008 10:17 pm
Ariel Sharon's War against the PalestiniansBargaining, accommodation, and compromise are alien to his whole way of thinking. This makes Sharon unsuited, both by temperament and by conviction, to the task of peace-making. In a peace process, unlike war, you cannot have a winner and a loser. The resolution of a conflict requires two winners. Sharon, on the other hand, views the relations with the Palestinians as a zero-sum game where a gain by one side is necessarily at the expense of the other. And he is hell-bent on always being the winner. President George W. Bush once described Sharon as "a man of peace." But this is about as accurate as describe Sharon as a slim and handsome young man.

Sharon is a man of war through and through and he perceives the Palestinians not as a partner on the road to peace but as Israel's principal enemy. The roots of Sharon's thinking about the Palestinians go back to Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the spiritual father of the Israeli right. In 1923 Jabotinsky published an article entitled "On the Iron Wall (We and the Arabs)." He argued that Arab nationalists were bound to oppose the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. Consequently, a voluntary agreement between the two sides was unattainable. The only way to realize the Zionist project was behind an iron wall of Jewish military strength. In other words, the Zionist project could only be implemented unilaterally and by military force
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 09:04 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'll only respond to your first challenge about Ariel Sharon. There's no adhominem there; only your imagination.

From CounterPunch: (This is only a partial list. It's up to you to find it false.)

February 7, 2001
Return of the Terrorist
The Crimes
of Ariel Sharon

Some incorrigible optimists have suggested that only a right-wing extremist of the notoriety of Likud leader Ariel Sharon will have the credentials to broker any sort of lasting settlement with the Palestinians. Maybe so. History is not devoid of such examples. But Sharon?

Sharon's history offers a monochromatic record of moral corruption, with a documented record of war crimes going back to the early 1950s. He was born in 1928 and as a young man joined the Haganah, the underground military organization of Israel in its pre-state days. In 1953 he
was given command of Unit 101, whose mission is often described as that of retaliation against Arab attacks on Jewish villages. In fact, as can be seen from two terrible onslaughts, one of them very well known, Unit 101's purpose was that of instilling terror by the infliction of discriminate, murderous violence not only on able bodied fighters but on the young, the old, the helpless.

Sharon's first documented sortie in this role was in August of 1953 on the refugee camp of El-Bureig, south of Gaza. An Israeli history of the 101 unit records 50 refugees as having been killed; other sources allege 15 or 20. Major-General Vagn Bennike, the UN commander, reported that "bombs were thrown" by Sharon's men "through the windows of huts in which the refugees were sleeping and, as they fled, they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons".

In October of 1953 came the attack by Sharon's unit 101 on the Jordanian village of Qibya, whose "stain" Israel's foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett, confided to his diary "would stick to us and not be washed away for many years". He was wrong. Though even strongly pro-Israel commentators in the West compared it to Lidice, Qibya and Sharon's role are scarcely evoked in the West today, least of all by journalists such as Deborah Sontag of the New York Times who recently wrote a whitewash of Sharon, describing him as "feisty", or the
Washington Post's man in Jerusalem who fondly invoked him after his fateful excursion to the Holy Places in Jerusalem as "the portly old warrior".

Israeli historian Avi Shlaim describes the massacre thus: "Sharon's order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. His success in carrying out the order surpassed all expectations. The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was
revealed only during the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they believed that all the inhabitants had run away and that they had no idea that anyone was hiding inside the houses."

The UN observer on the scene reached a different conclusion: "One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshhold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them." The slaughter in Qibya was described contemporaneously in a letter to the president of the United Nations Security Council dated 16 October 1953 (S/3113) from the Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Jordan to the United States. On 14 October 1953 at 9:30 at night, he wrote, Israeli troops launched a battalion-scale attack on the village of Qibya in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (at the time the West Bank was annexed to Jordan).

According to the diplomat's account, Israeli forces had entered the village and systematically murdered all occupants of houses, using automatic weapons, grenades and incendiaries. On 14 October, the bodies of 42 Arab civilians had been recovered; several more bodies were still under the wreckage. Forty houses, the village school and a reservoir had been destroyed. Quantities of unused explosives, bearing Israel army markings in Hebrew, had been found in the village. At about 3 a.m., to cover their withdrawal, Israeli support troops had begun shelling the
neighbouring villages of Budrus and Shuqba from positions in Israel.

And what of Sharon's conduct when he was head of the Southern Command of Israel's Defense Forces in the early 1970s? The Gaza "clearances" were vividly described by Phil Reeves in a piece in The London Independent on January 21 of this year.

"Thirty years have elapsed since Ariel Sharon, favourite to win Israel's forthcoming election, was the head of the Israel Defence Forces' southern command, charged with the task of 'pacifying' the recalcitrant Gaza Strip after the 1967 war. But the old men still remember it well. Especially the old men on Wreckage Street. Until late 1970, Wreckage, or Had'd, Street wasn't a street, just one of scores of narrow, nameless alleys weaving through Gaza City's Beach Camp, a shantytown cluttered with low, two-roomed houses, built with UN aid for refugees from the 1948 war who then, as now, were waiting for the international community to settle their future. The street acquired its name after an unusually prolonged visit from Mr Sharon's soldiers. Their orders were to bulldoze hundreds of homes to carve a wide, straight street. This would allow Israeli troops and their heavy armored vehicles to move easily through the camp, to exert control and hunt down men from the Palestinian Liberation Army.

"'They came at night and began marking the houses they wanted to demolish with red paint,' said Ibrahim Ghanim, 70, a retired labourer. 'In the morning they came back, and ordered everyone to leave. I remember all the soldiers shouting at people, Yalla, yalla, yalla, yalla! They threw everyone's belongings into the street. Then Sharon brought in bulldozers and started flattening the street. He did the whole lot, almost in one day. And the soldiers would beat people, can you imagine? Soldiers with guns, beating little kids!' By the time the Israeli army's work was done, hundreds of homes were destroyed, not only on Wreckage Street but throughout the camp, as Sharon ploughed out a grid of wide security roads. Many of the refugees took shelter in schools, or squeezed into the already badly over-crowded homes of relatives. Other families, usually those with a Palestinian political activist, were loaded into trucks and taken to exile in a town in the heart of the Sinai Desert, then controlled by Israel."

As Reeves reported, the devastation of Beach Camp was far from the exception. "In August 1971 alone, troops under Mr Sharon's command destroyed some 2,000 homes in the Gaza Strip, uprooting 16,000 people for the second time in their lives. Hundreds of young Palestinian men were arrested and deported to Jordan and Lebanon. Six hundred relatives of suspected guerrillas were exiled to Sinai. In the second half of 1971, 104 guerrillas were assassinated. 'The policy at that time was not to arrest suspects, but to assassinate them', said Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza City".

If you like, I can provide other sources concerning Ariel Sharon's past.

Okay. So the original article that you posted was, indeed, slanderous and inaccurate and therefore, indefensible. Great. Which would imply that your intention as to demonstrating "Why people hate the Jews" was to invent crap as anti-semites have done throughout the ages.
Peachy.
Now, the above article would seem to indicate that you believe because Ariel Sharon and the government of Israel believed that they were at nearly total war with an Arab population that was pledged to obliterate Israel and, in fact, attempted to do exactly that, and, in fact, is still pledged to obliterate Israel, that Sharon's actions of thirty plus years ago is, indeed, a reason why people hate the Jews.
Peachy.
I see nothing in particular regarding the description of Ariel Sharon above that would indicate that anyone in the world would choose to "hate the Jews" specifically as opposed to any other people on the planet such as the French or the Russians or the Catholics or the Muslims or the Arabs or the Africans or the Americans or the Burmese or the Argentinians or the English or any other people based on harsh wartime activities perpetrated by their generals or governments.
Again, the above makes absurd the comparison between Milosevic and Sharon. If one wished to tar Sharon with the brush of harsh and unreasonable warfare, then one would have to tar nearly every country and general in the world with the same accusations, tenfold over anything that Ariel Sharon has ever even attempted.
Do you "hate the Chinese" with equal justification?
The Rwandans? The South Africans? Guatemala? Australia?
Your comparisons and justifications for your "hatred" are absurd and ill-considered.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 09:47 am
As an antidote try "national Brotherhood Week" by Tom Learher.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 11:32 am
Moishe, You really don't understand the fundamentals of debate do you; you challenged what the writer wrote about Sharon, and you called it an ad hominem. I showed you why you were wrong. You than expanded your argument to include other cultures and races.

Stick with the initial issue/article that you challenged. I posted rebuttals to your challenge. You're the one using ad hominems. You probably fail to understand the meaning of the word.

FYI, I do not hate Jews even though many may perceive it that way. I hate the people who would treat other humans with disdain and cruelty, and that includes the Japanese before and during WWII. Get it, yet?

Please explain your "slanderous and inaccurate." That's a good start.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Moishe, You really don't understand the fundamentals of debate do you; you challenged what the writer wrote about Sharon, and you called it an ad hominem. I showed you why you were wrong. You than expanded your argument to include other cultures and races.

Stick with the initial issue/article that you challenged. I posted rebuttals to your challenge. You're the one using ad hominems. You probably fail to understand the meaning of the word.

FYI, I do not hate Jews even though many may perceive it that way. I hate the people who would treat other humans with disdain and cruelty, and that includes the Japanese before and during WWII. Get it, yet?

Please explain your "slanderous and inaccurate." That's a good start.

Are you claiming that your first article was not an ad hominem attack?

Sorry, but I dissected it as to its substance and there was none.
It is up to you to demonstrate that the vapid accusations of the author comparing Milosevic to Sharon were accurate. Or that Sharon or Israel actually committed any of the crimes delineated.

You chose not to do so, but chose to cite another article accusing Sharon of "crimes" that were totally different from those of the first article.
I chose to disagree that the "crimes" you noted in the second article were, indeed, crimes. The second article you posted cites Sharon for various military actions which the author claims are "crimes."

I pointed out that these sorts of supposed "crimes" have been perpetrated in far more savagery; length of time; intention to murder far more people; intention to wipe out or totally subjugate non-combatant supposed enemies; and so forth, by all of the countries mentioned and by most of the nations on this planet in far more depravity for far less reason than Israel has had in attacking the Arabs trying to wipe it out.

You posted your initial article and subsequent articles in a thread that purported to be about why people hate the Jews. An ordinary person would take those posts as an explanation of why people hated the Jews.
As your first article was an ad hominem screed of false and invented charges against Sharon and Israel comparing him to Milosevic and Serbia, it would follow that your inclination would be to grasp onto any stupid crap that denigrated Sharon; Israel; and therefore Jews.
Otherwise, why post it in this thread?

Again, your first article was slanderous in that it accused Sharon and Israel of monstrous behavior without any correlating data whatsoever.
And, it was inaccurate for all the reasons that I cited previously.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:27 pm
Moishe wrote: Or that Sharon or Israel actually committed any of the crimes delineated.


If you refuse to acknowledge the articles written by both Jews and non-Jews about Sharon's atrocities and crimes against humanity, I find it hopeless to even present more "evidence."
I do not wish to waste my time trying to convince somebody who refuses the facts presented; for which there are many more sources.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 06:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Moishe wrote: Or that Sharon or Israel actually committed any of the crimes delineated.


If you refuse to acknowledge the articles written by both Jews and non-Jews about Sharon's atrocities and crimes against humanity, I find it hopeless to even present more "evidence."
I do not wish to waste my time trying to convince somebody who refuses the facts presented; for which there are many more sources.

Confused
Absolutely. Time's a wastin'....
Perhaps you actually did detail the crimes that your first article accuses Sharon and Israel of committing, but I missed it in my vast inability to comprehend your "evidence."
"scorched-earth march through the West Bank?"
"preemptive use of massive military force against them."
"But it is always the occupier, with the big guns and control of the real estate, that holds the real keys to reconciliation."
"Both the plan laid out by former US Senator George Mitchell and the recent Saudi-inspired Arab League peace proposal offered such an option, but Sharon would not accept it"
"both have sought to destroy any momentum toward peace by waging war."
"Sharon has humiliated President Bush,"
"his drive to prevent--forever, if possible--a Palestinian state."
"blasting through West Bank towns, possibly burying children in their wake,"
"Whatever is ultimately discovered about the carnage committed by Israel's forces, enough is known to implicate Sharon for a form of ethnic cleansing"

Due to my inability to follow the subject of your argument, I missed your factual data support of the above, slanderous and untrue points...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 07:38 pm
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
Israel: Sharon Investigation Urged
(06/23/01) -- A criminal investigation into Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon´s role in the massacre of civilians in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla should be launched, Human Rights Watch urged today. The Israeli leader will meet on Tuesday at the White House with President Bush.

The call by Human Rights Watch came as Prime Minister Sharon begins a visit to the United States. The Israeli leader´s visit here comes as controversy mounts in Europe over his responsibility for the 1982 killings.

"There is abundant evidence that war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed on a wide scale in the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, but to date, not a single individual has been brought to justice," said Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch.

**********
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/truthaboutpalestine/sharon.html

**********

http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-as.html

**********

http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/wanted/sharonindex.htm

**********


You can claim all you want that all these different organizations are making false charges and accusations, but that's because you have blinders on. That's not anybody's fault but your own. Rather than twisting words and generalities, show us that these have no basis in truth about Ariel Sharon.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Feb, 2008 07:46 pm
Another article on the crimes of Ariel Sharon, and crimes against humanity.


http://www.indictsharon.net/warcrimes.shtml
0 Replies
 
 

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