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Why are Jews hated by so many people?

 
 
coluber2001
 
  3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 10:54 am
Why are Jews hated by so many people?

For one, they're convenient scapegoats for nationalistic demagogues.
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -3  
Wed 4 May, 2022 12:20 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
That makes no sense.

Only if you believed the priesthood. It fits the timeframe and it's related to the end of sacrifice (due to Christian doctrine).

Quote:
The abomination of desolation is the fall of the Temple.

It's already been explained to you that that's absurd because of the instruction to stand in the holy place (the sanctuary) when the abomination of desolation happened.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Wed 4 May, 2022 07:43 am
@Theo202,
Okay, let's assume you stood in the holy place when the abomination of desolation happens. If you say that the holy place is in the temple, specifically the "holy of holies", and that the abomination of desolation is Jesus's crucifixion.

https://www.answers.com/Q/What_did_the_Jewish_temple_curtain_weigh_when_it_was_rent

I also read elsewhere that 300 priests had to work together to move this curtain. It weighed hundreds of pounds. You stand there, and the temple veil literally falls on you.

Let's continue. You say that the holy place is in the temple, but I say the abomination of desolation is the fall of the temple. You stand there, the temple falls on you.

So what are to make of this? Simple. Ezekiel says (I think it was Ezekiel) God will leave the temple and sit on a hill. This seems to be what happened. From 30 AD(ish) up to 70 AD some strange miracles happened.
https://thegodofisrael.wordpress.com/2016/12/09/jesus-in-the-talmud-part-1-hostile-witnesses/
https://www.deedsofgod.com/index.php/128-70-ad-the-bizarre-signs-jerusalem-saw-portending-its-destruction-mainmenu-137
(This only mentions the temple door)
https://www.windowview.org/hmny/pgs/talmuds.30ce.html
We've got multiple sites talking about this. And at least two sources.
Quote:
We read in the Jerusalem Talmud:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157). [the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]


Quote:
A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves" (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).

What are these passages talking about? Since both Talmuds recount the same information, this indicates the knowledge of these events was accepted by the widespread Jewish community.

When God was in the Temple:
1. The lot was supposed to come up for sacrifice. To give you an understanding, lot drawing is like a raffle. There are stones in a jar or something, and you draw from different results, in this case only two results: scapegoat (the goat was allowed to get away) and sacrifice. I think the statistical chance of drawing scapegoat was more, showing God's favor. Year after year, they would draw the statistically improbable sacrifice. But now scapegoat was drawn. Hence the origin of the phrase "scapegoat", the Jews used Jesus as their sacrifice, so sacrifice and scapegoat got conflated in common phrase.
2. The blood of the sacrifice was supposed to turn white on the cloth, showing that God had washed sins clean with the sacrifice. Instead, they stained like they would naturally do.
3. The westerrn light was not supposed to run out of fuel during the night, representing that God would keep it stocked just like the menorah with Hanukkah. But night after night, they had to use more than they thought to keep the flame going. This represented God's supply, just as he supplied for the oil that wouldn't run out in the celebration of Hanukkah. But here God was saying, "Nope, you're on your own right now."
4. Of the miracles above, only this one was an active miracle. The others were an absence of things that the priest had come to expect. Every night, the doors of the temple would swing open. These doors represented defense against invaders, and uf they ever swung open, it was a sign that the temple itself would be destroyed .

At the time of the first Temple, even greater miracles happened, like the fire setting itself and being a roaring flame like a lion (intensity, not shape). But faith in God, and God's trust in the Jews had diminished. Now only these miracles happened. And then they didn't. God had left the building.

Where do we stand when God leaves the temple? Where is the holy place? Outside, where God is, of course.
Theo202
 
  -3  
Wed 4 May, 2022 05:24 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
You stand there, and the temple veil literally falls on you.

How do you get from "rend" to "fall"? It would have been attached on more than one side.

Quote:
You stand there, the temple falls on you.

You're assuming your conclusion.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Thu 5 May, 2022 10:21 pm
@Theo202,
I guess I had to literally see a picture of it to understand visually.

When I read "torn from top to bottom" I didn't imagine a line going straight down. I imagined like a cat climbing to the top of a window blinds, trying to get away from the dog. The cat can't stay up there, so *scratch* all the way down. But the curtain once severed apart doesn't stay up there either. Especially if it's a significant enough tear. It caves in, if it's pulled down with enough force.

I remember pulling at a venetian blinds and having exactly this happen. This was pulling from the bottom. But the holder up top was weak, and the screws gave out. The entire blinds seized up and feel on me. So, are we talking about a sever, like a sword from heaven cleanly sliced through from top to bottom. Or like a giant hand pulled down. Because in the latter case, the curtain rod (of substantial weight itself) basically snapped in half, and lest you think it was just the rod that gave out, it continued to be pulled apart while that was snapped, ripping the entire curtain all the way down.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/971988465308823652/New_Bitmap_Image.png

Okay, so like this, right? Well the next moment, the non-level split rod slides off, or the curtain does, or both do. The veil curtain is 60 ft high, 30 ft wide, 4 inches thick, and weighs several hundred pounds. Oh, and right now, God is not pleased that his son has been killed. So uhhhh, yeah, if you think that the holy place is right there, you may very well be right. But I wouldn't stand right there, right then.


Theo202
 
  -3  
Thu 5 May, 2022 10:39 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Oh, and right now, God is not pleased that his son has been killed.

A statement of faith. "God" is ambiguous, and the crucifixion is more consistently explained within the context of removing idolatry, especially intangible idols.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Fri 6 May, 2022 12:35 am
@Theo202,
So now you're denying God as an idol.

Idols are graven images. Things that if you worship, cannot talk back. For example, the cherubim in the first Temple and in the Ark of the Covenant.

God is distinct from idols. Strictly speaking, God is defined as the Creator of heaven and earth. Heaven and earth are idols, anything we could creaft are idols, including the law. Incorporeal things by definition are not idols by their very intangibility, just as we cannot bow down and worship hope or love.

In comparison, this is what Allah looks like.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/1a/00/a41a00c56ba79c3f07a14c02bd431729.jpg

The crucifixion was not about "removing the idol of Jesus" if that's what you're thinking. If it was, it did a damned poor job. Jesus rose from the grave, contrary to the wishes of both the Romans and the Jews, and plagued their existence for centuries. Here's an idol this did destroy though. The Temple itself.

The only idol of God, is the Wizard of Oz "God" that existed with the curtain up. The real God tore that down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

But that's actually who God is. The Man. Who we can now see once the curtain is down. The rest is an idol. Including any ideas you have of something different.

Read Ezekiel. The moment the veil fell, Jesus had begun building the Third Temple. And it was finished when the last stone of the Second Temple was gone.
Theo202
 
  -3  
Fri 6 May, 2022 12:49 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
So now you're denying God as an idol.
No idea what you mean by that.

Quote:
Idols are graven images.

Not always. Ezekiel 14:3
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Fri 6 May, 2022 12:57 am
@Theo202,
Sorry, there was a comma in there somewhere.

You're denying God, in favor of calling him an idol.

The idols you set up in your heart are when you say "this was made by God" when really this was crafted by human hands. Yes, always.

The Law and the Temple became idols. While that which is never an idol (God) was neglected and ignored. In favor of a false version that was the Law they had written.
Theo202
 
  -3  
Fri 6 May, 2022 03:41 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
You're denying God, in favor of calling him an idol.

Like I said, the term is ambiguous. One aspect of the ambiguity is the doctrine of the Trinity, where people believe the priesthood description. Idols of the heart can relate to an imagined deity.

And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.
Ezekiel 6:9

Which of course relates to the abomination of desolation.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Fri 6 May, 2022 10:51 am
@Theo202,
I think you've misunderstood.

The Trinity isn't an idol. The Trinity exists since the Old Testament.

Quote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Father

Quote:
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”


Son

Quote:
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;


The holy Spirit of the Lord.
Theo202
 
  -3  
Fri 6 May, 2022 06:18 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
The Trinity isn't an idol. The Trinity exists since the Old Testament.

No.
The spirit of Elohim ("Spirit of God") and the set-apart spirit ("Holy Spirit") are different things, but not in the Trinity.
Members of Elohim ("God") can have a female physical form, but not in the Trinity.
The son of YHWH is Israel, but not in the Trinity.
Moses was a member of Elohim, but not in the Trinity.
Angels and judges can be members of Elohim, but not in the Trinity.

"My father and I are one" could work with the trinity, but then there's this:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Fri 6 May, 2022 09:50 pm
@Theo202,
Making excuses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
The spirit of Elohim ("Spirit of God") and the set-apart spirit ("Holy Spirit") are different things, but not in the Trinity.


The Spirit of the Lord (Ruach ha'Kodesh) is the Holy Spirit. It has the same attributes, and it is mentioned synonymously with the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

Ezekiel
Quote:
He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.


Acts
Quote:
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.


The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord. We get this clearly when we find out about King Saul.

Quote:
14After the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, a spirit of distress (or evil spirit) from the LORD began to torment him.


This is pretty clear. This isn't just the the Lord's Spirit out there somewhere (distinct from the Angel of the Lord), but a Holy Spirit inside of a person, without which God is not with them and they are filled with evil and distress.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Members of Elohim ("God") can have a female physical form, but not in the Trinity.


Proverbs from 1 to 9 all mention Wisdom as a lady. In fact, when we press this topic we find...
Quote:
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.


If you have read the New Testament, this ought to be familiar. Wisdom is describing herself in the same way as the Word of God (Jesus) was described in John!

Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


Quote:
The son of YHWH is Israel, but not in the Trinity.


No. This is a lie perpetuated by Jews seeking to deny the Messiah. Israel is the chosen people of YHWH, not his firstborn son. The Messiah is the Son of God. For he tells this parable.....

Quote:
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.


The wicked tenants are those who God chose as his people. But they behaved as thugs, rejecting his prophets and even his Son. Why then has the Temple fallen? I should think the answer is fairly obvious. Because they need to repent.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Moses was a member of Elohim, but not in the Trinity. (Also mentioned judges)


NO. Moses is not God. He is a prophet. Prophets have the Holy Spirit active within them. They are not God, but it is God working through them to perform miracles. If Moses parts the Red Sea, it is Moses's faith, but it is God's doing. God gets the credit. If anything that is not graven gets called an idol, it is that. The human beings who live and die are not part of Elohim, but they are part of the great host that the Holy Spirit of the Lord lives in. We see this blasphemy play out again with veneration of Mary and the saints in Catholicism.

Quote:
Angels are members of Elohim, but not in the Trinity.


This might actually be true. Angels are a special creation, and are often a sort of extension of God the Father. The Creator speaks, and his word carries out his will, but what this often appears to mean is subcontracting.

An angel is part of God's majesty. Almost like a president has secret service, one even more intimate. They don't even have names in many cases, and wink out of existence when God no longer needs them.
Theo202
 
  -2  
Fri 6 May, 2022 10:43 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
The Spirit of the Lord (Ruach ha'Kodesh) is the Holy Spirit.

"Lord" is ambiguous. In the Tanak Ruach ha Qodesh only refers to YHWH.

Quote:
We get this clearly when we find out about King Saul.

In the KJV, LORD is a translation of YHWH.

Trinitarianism is nothing without ambiguity.

Quote:
No. This is a lie perpetuated by Jews seeking to deny the Messiah.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:22
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Hosea 11:1

Quote:
Moses is not God.

And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee Elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exodus 7:1

So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
I [am] YHWH thy Elohyk[אלהיך ], which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sat 7 May, 2022 09:38 am
@Theo202,
The Lord is God. God is the Lord.

If there is "lord" used in other senses, it will be Baal or some other name.

Late New Testament sometimes refers to Jesus as Lord, to explain that Jesus as part of the Trinity, is one with God. But I will not explain the Trinity, as we humans probably were not intended to understand it completely.

Quote:
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:22
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Hosea 11:1


The son of Israel, Moses. Not the Son of God.
Firstborn here is only poetic. Egypt has killed the firstborn for years, first with the depopulation campaign to control the slaves, and then with Pharaoh wanting to punish the Jews only to have this take the form of a plague against his own firstborn. But Israel is not the Son of God, nor is Moses. However, Hosea is speaking prophetically here, because Jesus himself would in fact come out of Egypt.

Quote:
And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee Elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


More figurative language. To the Egyptian mindset, the Pharaoh was a god. God is not appointing Moses as part of his being. He is saying, you will be like Pharaoh to the Jews, to stand against the Pharaoh of the Egyptians. I will make you (like) God and make Aaron your prophet (since all deities have prophets acting on their behalf). But Moses was not God. He lived and he died.

Quote:
Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.


Moses was a mortal man. His only claim to fame was that he saw God and lived. But it aged the heck out of him in most movies we see about him, and it canonically changed his face to the point where he needed a veil. Then he died like any other man. He was not Elohim.
Theo202
 
  -2  
Sat 7 May, 2022 03:00 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
The Lord is God. God is the Lord.

No, Lord is a singular title and in the Hebrew text "God" is usually a translation of the plural word elohim.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sat 7 May, 2022 04:52 pm
@Theo202,
God is titled the following:
El Shaddai, Yahweh, Tetragrammaton (literally means "four letter word" (YHWH)), Elohim, and many many others. But the Lord is God.

Quote:
Hear o Israel, the Lord your God is One.


The Shema literally tells us that this is crap. The Lord is your God, and God is one. Not plural. I suspect you are a Jew by some of your comments, so let's bake this simple to understand. The Trinity is not a plural. It's just God. If Elohim is plural, it is a singular plural, if that makes any sense to you.

https://www.hope-of-israel.org/elohim.html

Quote:
"Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. gods). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural Elohim (e.g. Jdg.11:24;1 Ki.11:5; 2 Ki.1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the PLURAL OF FULLNESS; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God."


Quote:
The word Elohim when referring to a single God is always translated as a singular in all Bible translations. When Elohim refers to a group of gods it is translated into English as "gods." In other words, the way one determines how to translate Elohim depends on context and the verb. (In Hebrew the verb contains information about whether it is singular or plural). So, in conclusion, we ask our Trinitarian friends to stop using Elohim to support their doctrine. This argument is not compelling and it is not being used by the top Trinitarian scholars anymore.


As though saying Sword of swords. If you were to use Excalibur as a model for all swords. In the same way, God is God of gods. This is what Elohim suggests. It is not in fact plural, so adding stuff in is probably not correct unless you accept the idea of the Holy Spirit.

The Muslims might think differently. The Muslims learned about Christianity from heretics. The Muslims are wrong. The Jews might think differently. The Jews literally rejected the Trinity when they rejected Jesus, and have no idea how it works. The Jews are wrong. I don't know much about the Trinity (as I say, we aren't supposed to), but I know it's not three gods, and it's not like the Hindu thing. I also know that it's a canonical idea that was bouncing around since the Old Testament, but it wasn't until Catholicism that it was codified. I also know that it's strictly speaking not necessary to learn the Trinity, but ultimately all that matters is God. But it is important to at least not perpetuate stupid garbage like that Moses is part of the Elohim. Yes, in a sense all of us are, because Christianity has an idea called the Body of Christ. But Moses is not to be canonized as some sort of great being, any more than I would be.
Theo202
 
  -2  
Sat 7 May, 2022 06:30 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
God is titled the following:
El Shaddai, Yahweh, Tetragrammaton (literally means "four letter word" (YHWH)), Elohim, and many many others. But the Lord is God.

No, The name of Elohim is "I AM" (Exodus 3:13-14)

Quote:
Hear o Israel, the Lord your God is One.

A crap translation is all it is.

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד
shema yishrael YHWH elohinuw YHWH echad
hear israel YHWH your elah YHWH one
Deuteronomy 6:4

Quote:
Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural Elohim (e.g. Jdg.11:24;1 Ki.11:5; 2 Ki.1:2).

No. Elohim = אלהים
Judges 11:24 כמוש אלהיך
1 Kings 11:4 עשתרת אלהי צדנים
2 Kings 1:2 בעל זבוב אלהי עקרון
bulmabriefs144
 
  0  
Sat 7 May, 2022 09:10 pm
@Theo202,
To answer your other post before it closed, that is the point. I don't reject Paul. I reject the people who reject Paul and the other apostles. Specifically the sort of "Christian" Jews that reject that the Tenple is rebuilt in Christ.

That's all Greek to me, I'm afraid. Though it's Hebrew. It means pretty much nothing as far as I am concerned.

What I will tell you is that I Am is not a name. Moses asks "What should I tell them when they ask who sent you?" God says, " I Am who I Am. "

God has effectively said three things in rapid succession.
1. You humans use names to control things. But I don't have anything for you to control. I am my own person.
2. I'm gonna give you a tautology instead, and then tell you to use I Am as a name. It'll do, because I Am => (to be) and I Am the one responsible for all creation.
3. You humans are constantly looking for a name for yourself. Yet I run the universe, yet I am content without one. You can call me anything you want, as long as it isn't degrading (there's a commandment against that).

God is Lord (Kyrie/Kyria). This name works as well as any other. But God would accept Emily or David or Broseph just as easily as God of All Things, Ruler of the Universe. This is why God calls himself I Am.
You wrongly try to pin him to this name as if you know his name. But God ignores all attempts to monopolize him or to declare we know best what God is like. God is who He is. And sometimes who She or They is.

And God said...

That's not my name.

By the way... That name is for Moses only. The Jews codified that name as though it were for all the people. But it was a result of an encounter. It would be like you using a nickname that you overheard a friend's friend tell your friend. That person didn't necessarily give you permission to use that name.

In fact, when Jacob wrestles the man who he later realizes is God, he asks his name. "Why do you want to know my name?" he says. The name of God isn't important. It's the name God gives us in the encounter.

If God calls Himself, Alyah Skye Fox, Green Zebra Tower, Qin Shi Huangdi, or any other name we are not to think that God has given us the only name that works. That name is there simply because names are how God connects with us humans. God uses nicknames and titles, but he has no need of a permanent name.
Theo202
 
  -1  
Sat 7 May, 2022 11:02 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Though it's Hebrew. It means pretty much nothing as far as I am concerned.


The key point is that the Hebrew masculine plural suffix is yud-mem (as used in elohim), and that suffix isn't used in the verses like it would be if your claim was true.
 

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