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President Obama just made the best speech of his life

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 07:18 pm
To me, Obama seemed to come in expecting to play nice with all sides on the issues, and govern by consensus. When none of it happened, he became ineffectual in most matters. The only place he does well is continuing the Bush policy of never-ending war.
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 07:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Your analysis is rather shallow, in face of the fact that the GOP resorted to both previously unused tactics in the House, and rarely-used tactics in the Senate, on a constant basis, in order to obstruct.


If you mean that they were more contrarian than usual and that American politics involves more automatic gainsay than it did historically I completely agree. But that is part of the game now and it's like blaming your failure to win on the other team's record number of three-pointers.

Instead Democrats just cry foul and say Republicans play dirty. That is not acceptable to me. When the Pistons created the "Jordan Rules" of hacking him to pieces he had to figure out a way around it and so do the Democrats. They can't just whine about foul play.

Quote:
No party has ever faced the level of obstruction that the Dems have in the Senate, and that's a fact - look up the rate of incidence of the filibuster usage since Obama's election vs. all other Presidents before him if you don't believe me.


It was pretty clear that was going to be the case since day one of his presidency. And when you know they are gonna hack you in the lane you need to develop an outside shot. You need to react.

The bottom line is that Democrats are being outplayed in this political game. I am not willing to excuse their failure on the fact that the Republicans are hand-checking on the perimeter.


Quote:
He didn't know they would filibuster every single bill he put forward, and refuse to confirm ANY of his nominees. And why would he know that? No GOP minority or Dem minority has ever done such a thing in the past. Your insistence that what the GOP is doing is 'business as usual' is ill-informed.


I didn't say anything about business as usual that I remember. But the fact remains that even after all that Obama played softball with them. On things like getting the debt ceiling raised he waited till the last minute with them for no good reason, when the whole damn world knew the Republicans were gonna be stubborn and then he had to cave because he wasn't willing to play economic chicken with them. Why didn't he start months earlier?

Bottom line is the Democratic political strategy has been inferior to that of the Republicans, and blaming Republicans for it is like blaming the other football team for coming up with new tactics to stop you.

Quote:
The Democrats simply do not have the party unity that the GOP does in the Senate, and they never have.


I agree, and that is one of their problems right now. They lack enough coherence to combat that of their opponents.

Quote:
Without discussing the specifics of how Republicans stopped Obama's plans so consistently in the Senate, you cannot come up with an accurate picture of how the last few years went.


The bottom line remains: who is winning the game? Who is outplaying the other team? Whatever the excuse for Democrat losses losses they remain.

Quote:
Nevertheless; I should point out that Obama passed a major HC reform bill (that is already showing some successes and, if it's not overturned by the SC, will fundamentally alter the nature of health care in this country in a good way) and managed to get quite a few other good things passed as well. You ought to give him at least some credit for overcoming a determined and united opposition on a few fronts.


That was the only bold thing he has done. I happen to disagree strongly with it and hope that it is overturned, but I still give him credit for this as one of his victories, even if it was not a victory on which he found me on his side.

That he blew his load on something I think is as bad as you think it is good is just more disappointing to me, but it is certainly an example of how to push for something bold and get it done even though the Republicans mounted strong opposition. Where did that Obama go? I think he chickened out because of all the personal attacks he was faced with to pass "Obama Care" and started to conserve political capital, and in that regard I wish he were more like Bush. Whatever Bush's faults he didn't govern with polling much in mind at all.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 07:42 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
Most of what he "got done" actually had support from Democrats at the time. Not because he bullied them or because he was stubborn, but because they were (for example) cowed by 9/11 and wanted to be Tough and Strong in the War on Terror.


Of course he (or rather Rove) bullied them. Remember Plame? Remember Swiftboating? They were very effective bullies.

Democrats were vocal against Iraq but voted for it out of fear of being the softy and the Bush administration worked that very well, things like calling it the "Patriot Act" is bulling right in the name (just like Obama tries more timidly with the "American Jobs Act").

Bush used the hell out of his bully pulpit.

Quote:
(Patriot Act, Iraq war, etc.)


All of these things are things Democrats were generally vocal about opposing till it came time to vote. You can credit his bullying or fault the Democrat's spinelessness if you want but the bottom line is that Republicans are better politicians pound-for-pound than Democrats. They get more of their vision done than do the Democrats.

Quote:
The things that he tried to do that actually required effort -- as opposed to "so we're all on the same page then? awesome" -- didn't go as well. Privatizing Social Security for example.


Sure, Bush didn't get anything bold done domestically. I'll grant you that. But I don't think he tried very hard either, focusing on being a "war time president".

And Iraq was nothing at all like a "so we are all on the page then". That was harder to push down America's throat than anything Obama will every have the audacity to try. Just because the spineless Democrats went along with it does not mean that it was not the most polemic political decision of the last decade.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 08:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:


And Iraq was nothing at all like a "so we are all on the page then". That was harder to push down America's throat than anything Obama will every have the audacity to try. Just because the spineless Democrats went along with it does not mean that it was not the most polemic political decision of the last decade.


Quote:
Introduced in Congress on October 2, 2002, in conjunction with the Administration's proposals,[2][7] H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives on Thursday afternoon at 3:05 p.m. EDT on October 10, 2002, by a vote of 296-133,[8] and passed the Senate after midnight early Friday morning, at 12:50 a.m. EDT on October 11, 2002, by a vote of 77-23.[9] It was signed into law as Pub.L. 107-243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Not even close.

There were a lot of liberals who were opposed to it, but a lot of them were not in government. The ones who were both opposed and in a position to vote were outnumbered by those who decided -- based on issues like their constituents, re-electability, etc. -- that they were voting for it.

Swiftboating was in the campaign (vs. John Kerry).

Plame was not governance, except in the sense of shaping public perception. I don't see what lesson it provides for Obama, though. Do illegal things to help your cause?
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 08:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Sure, Bush didn't get anything bold done domestically.


Actually, I forgot about the tax cuts, that was big (but relatively easy).
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 08:26 pm
@sozobe,


I didn't say the vote was close. I remember very well how stupefied I was that the Democrats bent over en masse. But the public was very divided about this and Democrats caved instead of representing the nearly half of the country that was opposed to it. My point is that Bush managed to cower the Democrats into voting for his war, not that the vote was a close one (it should have been a close vote but Democrats are spineless and this is when I realized how useless the Democratic party is).

Quote:
Swiftboating was in the campaign (vs. John Kerry).


So? My example was to illustrate their competence at bullying, they demonstrated it earlier than that (e.g. what they did to McCain to get the nomination in the first place) if chronology is what's making this example not work for you.

The Bush administration was very good at being a bully. As much as I despise Rove's politics he's head and shoulder above anyone on the Democrat's side when it comes to political strategy.

Quote:
Plame was not governance, except in the sense of shaping public perception. I don't see what lesson it provides for Obama, though. Do illegal things to help your cause?


I was giving a rebuttal to your claim that Bush did not bully to make the case for Iraq not trying to provide it as a recommendation for Obama to ape.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 08:34 pm
@Robert Gentel,
And if you want a metric to substantiate my claim that the Iraq war was polemic how about we use the number of people who took to the streets to protest it? You cannot name an American political decision in the last decade that brought a greater number of people to the streets to protest it. That's why I consider it the most polemic American decision in the last decade.

That the vote was a cakewalk is exactly the political fecklessness that I fault Democrats for (and vainly hoped Obama would be different from, since he opposed it).
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 09:38 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Technocrats and deep thinkers are the types I tend to admire more but they aren't usually very effective leaders in the face of opposition.

Do you see Obama as a technocrat and deep thinker?
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 09:42 pm
@Thomas,
A deep thinker more so than traditional technocrat but yes to both counts relative to most people in American politics.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 06:43 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

My point is that Bush managed to cower the Democrats into voting for his war, not that the vote was a close one (it should have been a close vote but Democrats are spineless and this is when I realized how useless the Democratic party is).


I disagree. I think 9/11 cowed the Democrats into voting for war, not anything specific that Bush did.

Andrew Sullivan, for example, is not a liberal or a Democrat but is someone who has spoken about how deeply 9/11 freaked him out and how it changed his thinking at the time. He was very in favor of the Iraq War at the time, but now wishes he hadn't been. He didn't need Bush bullying him, it was the circumstances.

Robert wrote:
Quote:
Swiftboating was in the campaign (vs. John Kerry).


So? My example was to illustrate their competence at bullying, they demonstrated it earlier than that (e.g. what they did to McCain to get the nomination in the first place) if chronology is what's making this example not work for you.


My point is that you seem to be saying that Bush was able to do something, governance-wise, that Obama hasn't been able to do. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

In that context, the campaign doesn't mean much. (Obama is a skilled campaigner even without Swiftboating.)

Robert wrote:
Quote:
Plame was not governance, except in the sense of shaping public perception. I don't see what lesson it provides for Obama, though. Do illegal things to help your cause?


I was giving a rebuttal to your claim that Bush did not bully to make the case for Iraq not trying to provide it as a recommendation for Obama to ape.


My point again is that liberals tend to think that Bush was more of a bully in terms of governance than he actually was. I take issue with the meme that he was able to push things through, so why can't Obama? That's not really how it went down. The Democrats (with a few exceptions, miss ya Russ) were indeed spineless, but I think that was due way more to 9/11 and its offshoots than any strategy or method that Bush employed.
saab
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 07:07 am
@edgarblythe,
The only place he does well is continuing the Bush policy of never-ending war. ........for which he already got the Nobel Peace Prize.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 07:12 am
@saab,
No, he hasn't.

The Iraq war is in its final stages. Afghanistan is a mess, of course, but the effort has been towards getting out. Libya is the only one of those that he instigated, and that was relatively quick and relatively effective.

The Nobel Peace Prize was stupid, I'm more annoyed at the committee than Obama about that though. As far as I can tell they were trying to impact world affairs by guilting him into a certain course of action.
saab
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 07:31 am
@sozobe,
The Nobel Peace Prize have had a few tendencies to be given to people for not accomplishing things.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 09:28 am


Americans were more confident of the survival of this Republic 70 years ago after the devastating sneak attack by the Japanese than they are today after just 3 years of Obama's devastating rule.

America is resolved to vote Barack Hussein Obama out of office in 2012 because it's the only action that will allow the healing and rebuilding to begin making this country great once again.
0 Replies
 
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Thomas
 
  6  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 09:48 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

When he had a Dem majority, he squandered every opportunity.

I don't know if that's fair to say.

I know for certain it is fair to say.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 09:55 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

When he had a Dem majority, he squandered every opportunity.

I don't know if that's fair to say.

I know for certain it is fair to say.


Well, I don't believe that is true. His 'Dem Majority' didn't get the job done for him. It wasn't like Obama wasn't trying... the GOP and a few Dems used the filibuster masterfully while refusing to compromise or engage on a single thing at all, in the middle of a giant financial crisis. You blame that on Obama but I don't see a lot of persuasive evidence that he is in fact to blame.

And, let's be clear that the area of failure was the Senate. The House passed every bill he asked for, and more.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
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Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 02:04 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
I disagree. I think 9/11 cowed the Democrats into voting for war, not anything specific that Bush did.


I agree that 9/11 gave Bush the political capital to push for Iraq, but still think he was much more forceful and ideological than Obama has shown to be. After 9/11 Obama would have invaded Afghanistan, and done a bit domestically for security. He would not have created Homeland Security, passed the "Patriot" Act, and then managed to pull off a war of aggression as the cherry on top.

Now some of the reasons why are because he's a lot more sane, but also because he's a great deal more timid. Bush swung for the ******* fences with 9/11's mandate. He could not have possibly gotten more of their wish list out of it.

Even where Bush failed domestically, like on privatizing social security, he was swinging for the fences. Privatizing social security would be harder to pull off than Iraq. It was a big deal.

And even on the domestic front he made a huge difference for conservative ideology. They went for a "starve the beast" strategy of dramatic increases in military spending with tax cuts, trying to force social cuts by virtue of not having money for them. Obama's hands are still partially tied by that ploy and Obama won't be able to rewrite taxation as drastically as Bush did.

Quote:
Andrew Sullivan, for example, is not a liberal or a Democrat but is someone who has spoken about how deeply 9/11 freaked him out and how it changed his thinking at the time. He was very in favor of the Iraq War at the time, but now wishes he hadn't been. He didn't need Bush bullying him, it was the circumstances.


I still think the Bush administration preyed on these fears well. They hammered the risk of disagreeing with them home with comments like not waiting for a "mushroom cloud" to act. They kept up a steady stream of media manipulation that the media (such as the NY Times) later apologized for allowing themselves to be so manipulated by.

These folks didn't take their fears and decide to invade Iraq on their own. The Bush administration sold them this war using the bully pulpit.

Quote:
My point is that you seem to be saying that Bush was able to do something, governance-wise, that Obama hasn't been able to do. Correct me if I'm wrong there.


I said that Bush was someone who was less interested in polls and consensus and was more stubborn. And I do think that he was more effective in getting an audacious and unpopular thing done than Obama because of those qualities. Obama is much more attuned to the winds of popular opinion than is Bush and much more risk-averse.

Bush was willing to stand up to the doves, Obama has shown absolutely no willingness to push back against the hawks (even on subjects he campaigned as being evil).

I do not consider Bush a better leader, after all most of that agenda was not his (initially he deferred very extensively on national security and foreign policy) but his willingness not to bother with consensus and do what he thought was right made him more consistent and effective (for his goals) than Obama is.

Obama was elected with a mandate, when people finally realized what a mess Bush had made. What did he do? He decided he's gonna be a "post-partisan" president and basically avoids getting dirty. He announces to the world that we want Israel to stop settlements and Bibi just comes to America and reminds Obama that pressuring him comes at a political cost and now Obama has folded to him and peace is on the back burner because it's clear that in a confrontation between Bibi and Obama that Obama will be the one to back down.

What Israel has done to Obama in this term has been embarrassing to the US and Obama has no reason to let it happen other than his concern about the Jewish vote for his reelection. He is president by poll and that could not be said of Bush.

Quote:
In that context, the campaign doesn't mean much. (Obama is a skilled campaigner even without Swiftboating.)


I agree. I think Obama's a better campaigner than pretty much anyone else, I just find him largely useless other than when he's campaigning for himself. I still do think that the Swiftboating showed a great deal of political skill and represented a good example of the bullying that the Bush administration was very good at.

Quote:
My point again is that liberals tend to think that Bush was more of a bully in terms of governance than he actually was.


Because he crammed Iraq down the throats of half of the Americans who were diametrically opposed to the idea. Like I've said, there has not been a more unpopular decision in the last decade of American politics and he rammed it through and still managed to get reelected.

That alone is enough why. He started without a mandate and then got one with 9/11 and made hay while the sun was shining. He could not have possibly pushed a more audacious agenda. He went as wild as was politically possible.

You can't say the same about Obama, the only time he showed any boldness and used the bully pulpit was for "Obamacare" then he wilted and tried to hang on to his approval ratings.

Bush dramatically rewrote the government with his 9/11 political capital. He could not have possibly been more audacious and while it's true that Obama has not had a gift of political capital like that was he has been so timid with what he has had that it is clear that he wouldn't have been anywhere near as audacious.

Quote:
I take issue with the meme that he was able to push things through, so why can't Obama? That's not really how it went down.


Yes it is. He changed America more than Obama even dreams of. Obama will always have too much timidity to swing for the fences like that.

Bush's made as big a mark as was politically possible, Obama has made as small a mark as was politically possible. Obama is still dealing with Bush's choices, Obama's successor will have nothing big from Obama to deal with.

Quote:
The Democrats (with a few exceptions, miss ya Russ) were indeed spineless, but I think that was due way more to 9/11 and its offshoots than any strategy or method that Bush employed.


Ok, fine. When the Democrats fail blame the Republicans and when Republicans win blame the Democrats. That's all semantics to me. The bottom line is that one party is much more coherent about their goals and executed much better on them. Blame whoever you want but it's true. The Democratic party is a big mess of idiots right now and has been for nearly a decade (the Republicans are just idiots, not messy idiots).

The Bush administration changed America an order of magnitude more than Obama can ever dream of doing. Yes Bush would not have been able to do most of it without 9/11, but Obama doesn't use his political capital for anything other than campaigning for himself. He doesn't help the Democrats out enough, he doesn't use his bully pulpit well enough and he's just another politician governing by "consensus" (i.e. follow the polls).

When it comes to putting his foot down he'll pick it right up at the slightest sign of political danger. The only audacity he had was imagining that he could be president and then his healthcare initiative. Every last other thing he has done has been characterized by deep timidity and incessant hedging of bets for reelection. It's like it's all he cares about: his second term.

Say what you want about Bush (and I certainly will, I think he was the worst president of my lifetime), but Bush didn't roll like that. He didn't have his finger up to the wind, ready to change his principles at any time like Obama does.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 02:39 pm
@Robert Gentel,
It seems like you want someone who'll be as much of an asshole for the D's side, as Bush was for the GOP. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this certainly seems to be what you are advocating for. Bush was very effective in large part because of his willingness to ignore the law, precedent, and public opinion to ram through what he wanted. I don't want a Dem president who is going to act in a similar fashion.

I don't think it's very good for the long-term futures of the party for the Dems to act in that fashion, and I'm surprised to see others advocating for it. I also should remind you that ALL of Bush's accomplishments worth mentioning were in his first term - his second-term goals all failed spectacularly and he was mired in scandals CAUSED by his very assholishness and willingness to beat up institutions that didn't agree with him.

You say that Bush changed America more than Obama could dream of doing, I flat-out disagree with that contention. The ACA is the biggest and most meaningful reform to hit the books in 40 years. I hate parts of it too (which you should blame on Harry Reid as much as anyone) but it puts us down the path to a sane health care policy. What was Bush's accomplishment that exceeds that? Other than sowing fear of foreigners and lowering taxes, I don't really see anything worth pointing at.

There's also stuff like this:

Quote:


When it comes to putting his foot down he'll pick it right up at the slightest sign of political danger. The only audacity he had was imagining that he could be president and then his healthcare initiative. Every last other thing he has done has been characterized by deep timidity and incessant hedging of bets for reelection. It's like it's all he cares about: his second term.


Sorry, but this is pure bullshit. They tried very hard to pass legislation such as ACES and the closure of Guantanamo, only to be blocked by the GOP and a few Dem senators on both counts. They weren't 'deeply timid' on these issues at all. Same with Dodd/Frank and the CFPA; a good bill, a good agency created, the GOP won't allow anyone to be nominated to it, period.

I find this analysis to be lacking somewhat in depth and accuracy. High on emotion, low on specifics.

Cycloptichorn
 

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