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How deep did coverup go in Penn State child sex abuse case?

 
 
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Thu 8 Dec, 2011 02:23 pm
@hawkeye10,
Joining a crowd of accusers is not the same as being the first one to make the accusation. After the first one (or several) had received the intense persecution, reaction to the joiners would be expected to be relatively mild. At least that's what I think. It's just my opinion.
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Thu 8 Dec, 2011 02:28 pm
@BillRM,
Your point is well taken. Talk about opportunism! We could end up with a mixture of genuine victims and imposters. What a headache for the legal system!

Well, gentlemen, I gotta go now. Got a lot of things to do. Have a good afternoon and evening. Smile
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Thu 8 Dec, 2011 02:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well, I came back when I saw this post of yours; and all I have to say is ...

Oh, no! What will I do now? Crying or Very sad

Just because I'm civil to someone doesn't mean that I agree with everything or most of the things that he says. I just won't participate in name-calling anymore. I don't have JGoldman10's tolerance levels. (I don't know how he can put up with abuse online month after month after month. I take that back. Year after year. Gotta hand it to him. Seriously.)

I go now.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Thu 8 Dec, 2011 02:46 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:

Joining a crowd of accusers is not the same as being the first one to make the accusation. After the first one (or several) had received the intense persecution, reaction to the joiners would be expected to be relatively mild. At least that's what I think. It's just my opinion.


Yes, but the state will be front and center making the argument " see all the people who say that he is guilty??!! He must then be guilty"

In reality that it not the case, as there are other explanations for the relatively large number of accusers.

I think that same is true for all of the accusers of priests 20-30 years ago....there is little down side to adding ones name to the list of alleged victims, and the upside is pretty good. All that a person needs is to have had been in a position where a priest could have potentially done something, any time alone with a priest will work, so long as there is clear evidence that the guy abused at least on boy one time.

If Sandusky ever took you for a drive to get a milk shake at Dairy Queen you have the golden ticket.
IRFRANK
 
  4  
Mon 12 Dec, 2011 02:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'm glad I didn't go to the Dairy Queen with Jerry. I was a little old for him anyway. I'd pass up the money for not having those memories.

Maybe his (Jerry's) wife can shed some truth on this matter. She hasn't been exactly the best support for him.

Your continued blindness in this matter is appalling.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Mon 12 Dec, 2011 03:16 pm
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
Your continued blindness in this matter is appalling.


Which translates into "Your continued unwillingness to call for the rope to string this guy up is appalling."

Sandusky looks pretty guilty, but how about we have a fair trial first before we decide MKay?

Re the wife: the only thing I have heard her say is that she rejects with vigor the assertions that anything wrong happened in her house, which is calling the accusers liers, which sounds to me like support for her husband.
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Mon 12 Dec, 2011 03:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
It's liars, not liers.

You are right, he does deserve a fair trial. Somewhere other than State College.

The statement I saw from his wife mentioned that she did know he was downstairs with the young boys. She also heard them calling out. Who knows? She needs to tell the truth.

Does it not seem wrong to you that he took showers, one on one, with 10-12 year old boys? Is that normal behavior for a 50 year old man? Not criminal in and of itself, but questionable.

It's hard for me to believe that this many accussers would be lying, and there stories are so similar. Most came out in the grand jury report before it went on the public news.

You might be trying to be righteous here, but I think you picked the wrong time for that.

Hopefully, we will find out some truth.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 12 Dec, 2011 04:08 pm
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
Does it not seem wrong to you that he took showers, one on one, with 10-12 year old boys?


IN prudish puritanical America 2011 this is not acceptable behavior anymore, but when I went to school during the 70's the gym teachers had their office in the shower/locker room area, and walked through and watched us boys shower from their desk regularly. They probably showered with us too, I just dont remember it happening, because it would have been no big deal.
djjd62
 
  2  
Mon 12 Dec, 2011 04:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
most jocks, coaches and gym teachers are of questionable sexual orientation in my opinion, look at the homo erotic nature of most hazing rituals
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 12 Dec, 2011 04:56 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

most jocks, coaches and gym teachers are of questionable sexual orientation in my opinion, look at the homo erotic nature of most hazing rituals
I remember asking a girl if their locker room was the same, and she said that the office was still there kinda but that the girls had privacy from the teachers during changing and showering. On the boys side the gym teachers were a constant PRESENCE! One in particular would walk through the shower bellowing an instruction to hurry up or something likewise and would without fail include "MEN!" in the sentence.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 14 Dec, 2011 01:47 am
Quote:
Joseph Amendola, Sandusky's defense attorney, says there will be no plea negotiations. "This is a fight to the death," he told reporters

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9422740-penn-state-sex-abuse-scandal-sandusky-legal-move-raises-questions-about-strategy

If he is innocent then this is a good thing....I am so sick of the state getting away with rolling people by loading them up on charges. Perhaps too Sandusky sees no point in trying to bargain with a state that would perp walk him a second time when they added to the charges, that being a totally gratuitous bitch slap of a guy who has not yet been found to be guilty.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sat 17 Dec, 2011 11:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
It will be an interesting trial.
What does "bitch slap" mean, as distinct from some other kind of slap?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sun 18 Dec, 2011 01:52 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

It will be an interesting trial.
What does "bitch slap" mean, as distinct from some other kind of slap?


A slap whose only purpose is to attempt to communicate to the bitch who the boss is....in this case the boss is the state and the one who is supposed to play the part of the bitch is Sandusky. . This is a classic method for sadists to keep their victims in line. Given that in response Sandusky said that there is no way in hell he will negotiate with the state it does not seemed to have worked.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sun 18 Dec, 2011 09:21 am

I don 't believe that this trial will get as much press
as the OJ murder trial.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Sun 18 Dec, 2011 11:12 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Joseph Amendola, Sandusky's defense attorney, says there will be no plea negotiations. "This is a fight to the death," he told reporters

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9422740-penn-state-sex-abuse-scandal-sandusky-legal-move-raises-questions-about-strategy

If he is innocent then this is a good thing....I am so sick of the state getting away with rolling people by loading them up on charges. Perhaps too Sandusky sees no point in trying to bargain with a state that would perp walk him a second time when they added to the charges, that being a totally gratuitous bitch slap of a guy who has not yet been found to be guilty.


That could be a very prophetic statement by his attorney if he ever spends time with the general prison population. They tend to take a strong dislike to child molesters.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sun 18 Dec, 2011 11:26 am
@JPB,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Joseph Amendola, Sandusky's defense attorney, says there will be no plea negotiations. "This is a fight to the death," he told reporters

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9422740-penn-state-sex-abuse-scandal-sandusky-legal-move-raises-questions-about-strategy

If he is innocent then this is a good thing....I am so sick of the state getting away with rolling people by loading them up on charges. Perhaps too Sandusky sees no point in trying to bargain with a state that would perp walk him a second time when they added to the charges, that being a totally gratuitous bitch slap of a guy who has not yet been found to be guilty.
JPB wrote:
That could be a very prophetic statement by his attorney if he ever spends time with the general prison population.
They tend to take a strong dislike to child molesters.
I 've heard that 's very true.
Remember the cannibal,
who killed many young lads?

He was killed in prison.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sun 18 Dec, 2011 12:06 pm
@JPB,
The documented abuse and high death rate of child molesters while in the care of the state being just one of many ways that the American "justice" system fails to perform. The continual failure o the state to correct this deficency is just one of many indicators of its moral bankruptcy.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Tue 20 Dec, 2011 10:17 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
IN prudish puritanical America 2011 this is not acceptable behavior anymore, but when I went to school during the 70's the gym teachers had their office in the shower/locker room area, and walked through and watched us boys shower from their desk regularly. They probably showered with us too, I just dont remember it happening, because it would have been no big deal.



I don't consider my self a 'prude' in any way. I went to school 10 years before that and yes, the gym teachers were common in the showers, but not one on one. And we weren't 10 yrs old, more like 15. I don't remember 'horseplay' with the older men. Amongst each other, sure. If the coaches or gym teachers would have tried to join in, it would have been pretty weird for sure.

I remember swim lessons when I was maybe 8 yrs old, at the YMCA and they were in the nude, but there were maybe 20 of us, and more than one instructor.

I sure as hell don't remember a 50 year old man hugging me, in the nude, when I was 10 years old.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2011 11:39 am
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
I sure as hell don't remember a 50 year old man hugging me, in the nude, when I was 10 years old.


All Sandusky has admitted to is taking showers with boys and horsing around, my impression is that some parents had a problem with that but that the Penn St people blew it off as Sandusky being old school. It was the wrong choice, but there was some logic to it.

We had a teacher who snapped us with wet towels, horseplay between teachers and students was not unheard of, but was rare.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2011 01:07 am
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7233704/the-brutal-truth-penn-state

Quote:
The Brutal Truth About Penn State

The problem can't be solved by prayer or piety — and it's far more widespread than we think

By Charles P. Pierce
POSTED NOVEMBER 14, 2011





"But you, when you pray, go into your inner chamber and, locking the door, pray there in hiding to your Father …"

— Matthew, Chapter 6

It was midway through the pregame prayer session that the gorge hit high tide. There is always something a little nauseating in large spectacles of conspicuous public piety, but watching everyone on the field take a knee before the Penn State-Nebraska game, and listening to the commentary about how devoutly everybody was praying for the victims at Penn State, was enough to get me reaching for a bucket and a Bible all at once. It was as though the players and coaches had devised some sort of new training regimen to get past the awful reality of what had happened. Prayer as a new form of two-a-days. Jesus is my strength coach. Contrition in the context of a football game seemed almost obscene in its obvious vanity.

So, when the feeling had subsided somewhat, I dropped by the sixth chapter of Matthew, and then I went on to the Teacher in Ecclesiastes, who warned his people:

For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

And I felt better, but not much. There is solace in Scripture, but there are also too many places where the guilty and the morally obtuse can hide.

The crimes at Penn State are about the raping of children. That is all they are about. The crimes at Penn State are about the raping of children by Jerry Sandusky, and the possibility that people lied to a grand jury about the raping of children by Jerry Sandusky, and the likelihood that most of the people who had the authority at Penn State to stop the raping of children by Jerry Sandusky proved themselves to have the moral backbone of ribbon worms.

It no longer matters if there continues to be a football program at Penn State. It no longer even matters if there continues to be a university there at all. All of these considerations are trivial by comparison to what went on in and around the Penn State football program.

(Those people who will pass this off as an overreaction would do well to remember that the Roman Catholic Church is reckoned to be a far more durable institution than even Penn State University is, and the Church has spent the past decade or so selling off its various franchise properties all over the world to pay off the tsunami of civil judgments resulting from the raping of children, a cascade that shows no signs of abating anytime soon.)

There will now be a decade or more of criminal trials, and perhaps a quarter-century or more of civil actions, as a result of what went on at Penn State. These things cannot be prayed away. Let us hear nothing about "closure" or about "moving on." And God help us, let us not hear a single mumbling word about how football can help the university "heal." (Lord, let the Alamo Bowl be an instrument of your peace.) This wound should be left open and gaping and raw until the very last of the children that Jerry Sandusky is accused of raping somehow gets whatever modicum of peace and retribution can possibly be granted to him. This wound should be left open and gaping and raw in the bright sunlight where everybody can see it, for years and years and years, until the raped children themselves decide that justice has been done. When they're done healing — if they're ever done healing — then they and their families can give Penn State permission to start.

If that blights Joe Paterno's declining years, that's too bad. If that takes a chunk out of the endowment, hold a damn bake sale. If that means that Penn State spends some time being known as the university where a child got raped, that's what happens when you're a university where a child got raped. Any sympathy for this institution went down the drain in the shower room in the Lasch Building. There's nothing that can happen to the university, or to the people sunk up to their eyeballs in this incredible moral quagmire, that's worse than what happened to the children who got raped at Penn State. Good Lord, people, get up off your knees and get over yourselves.

There is something to be said, however, for looking at how it happened. Which is not the same thing as trying to figure out how it "could" have happened. The wonder is that it doesn't happen more often.

(How many football coaches out there work with "at-risk" kids? How many shoes are there still to drop? Unfair? Ask one Bernard Law, once cardinal archbishop of Boston, if you can pry him out of his current position at the Basilica of Our Lady of the Clean Getaway in Rome.)

It happens because institutions lie. And today, our major institutions lie because of a culture in which loyalty to "the company," and protection of "the brand" — that noxious business-school shibboleth that turns employees into brainlocked elements of sales and marketing campaigns — trumps conventional morality, traditional ethics, civil liberties, and even adherence to the rule of law. It is better to protect "the brand" than it is to protect free speech, the right to privacy, or even to protect children.

If Mike McQueary had seen a child being raped in a boardroom or a storeroom, he wouldn't have been any more likely to have stopped it, or to have called the cops, than he was as a graduate assistant football coach at Penn State. With unemployment edging toward double digits, and only about 10 percent of the workforce unionized, every American who works for a major company knows the penalty for exercising his personal freedom, or his personal morality, at the expense of "the company." Independent thought is discouraged. Independent action is usually crushed. Nobody wants to damage the brand. Your supervisor might find out, and his primary loyalty is to the company. Which is why he got promoted to be your supervisor in the first place.

Further, the institutions of college athletics exist primarily as unreality fueled by deceit. The unreality is that universities should be in the business of providing large spectacles of mass entertainment. The fundamental absurdity of that notion requires the promulgation of the various deceits necessary to carry it out. The "student-athlete," just to name one. "Amateurism," just to name another. Of course, people involved in Penn State football allegedly deceived people when it became plain that children had been raped within the program's facilities by one of the program's employees. It was simply one more lie to maintain the preposterously lucrative unreality of college athletics. And to think, the players at Ohio State became pariahs because of tattoos and memorabilia sales.

By an order of magnitude, the Penn State child-raping scandal is miles beyond anything that ever happened with the Ohio State football team over the past five years, miles beyond anything that happened with the SMU football team in the 1980s, and miles beyond anything that happened with the point-shaving scandals in college basketball. It is not a failure of our institutions so much as it is a window into what they have become — soulless, profit-driven monsters, Darwinian predators with precious little humanity left in them. Penn State is only the most recent example. Too much of this country is too big to fail.

On July 20, Enda Kenny, Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland, rose before the Dail Eireann and excoriated the Vatican and the institutional Roman Catholic Church for the horrors inflicted on generations of Irish children, horrors that they both committed and condoned. This was an act of considerable political courage for Kenny. The influence of the Church had been a deadweight on Irish politics and the secular government since the country first gained its freedom in the 1920s.

Nevertheless, Kenny said:

"Thankfully … this is not Rome. Nor is it industrial school or Magdalene Ireland, where the swish of a soutane smothered conscience and humanity and the swing of a thurible ruled the Irish-Catholic world. This is the Republic of Ireland, 2011. A Republic of laws … of rights and responsibilities … of proper civic order … where the delinquency and arrogance of a particular kind of 'morality' will no longer be tolerated or ignored … as taoiseach, I am making it absolutely clear that, when it comes to the protection of the children of this state, the standards of conduct which the Church deems appropriate to itself cannot, and will not, be applied to the workings of democracy and civil society in this Republic."

He did not drop to his knees. He did not ask for a moment of silence. He did not seek "closure" but, rather, he demanded the hard and bitter truth of it, and he demanded it from men steeped in deceit from their purple carpet slippers to their red beanies. Enda Kenny did not look to bind up wounds before they could be cleansed. And that is the only way to talk about what happens after the raping of children.

Charles P. Pierce is a staff writer for Grantland and the author of Idiot America. He writes regularly for Esquire , is the lead writer for Esquire.com's Politics blog, and is a frequent guest on NPR.
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