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A constitutional amendment barring gay marriage!!

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 05:55 am
Quote:
I guess that us gays have the reputation of being promiscuous, lose, immoral etc etc. It probably is pretty difficult for the population to believe that we can also fall in love - stay together for the rest of our lives with someone, be committed. Or they dont want us to...


Gautam- I think that you brought up a fascinating point. Religious fundamentalists love to bring up the "fact" that gays are loose, immoral, etc., and therefore totally undesirable in society.

Now, what if gays were offered civil marriage as an option, and many flocked to the courthouses to "make it legal". That would fly in the face of that argument, and make the fundamentalist's stance on the issue far less believable. Many being homophobic, the fundamentalists, IMO, do not WANT to place gays in a position where they would become just another part of the normal social scene.

The more that the fundamentalists can demonize gays, the more that they prevent them from living normal lives, the more that they work to emphasize differences, rather than similarities with the straight world, the less that the fundamentalists have to deal with the source of their own homophobia!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 06:32 am
Never have figured out what that "source" is....
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 06:42 am
dlowan- Can't say for sure, but there is a school of thought which says that extreme homophobia is a reaction formation against latent homosexual impulses.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 06:47 am
Begs the question of what makes the impulses so worrying in the first place!
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 06:55 am
dlowan- Some churches teach that homosexuality is an abomination. There is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance engendered by a person who considers himself to be religious, yet has homosexual predispositions, either conscious or unconscious. One way to relieve the dissonance is by demonizing homosexuality.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 07:05 am
I shall become, no doubt, tiresome if I comment that, unless one believes such religions actually to stem from the received word of a deity, (which I do not) that the homophobia preceded, and, indeed, engendered the prohibitions.
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the prince
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 07:07 am
Thank god I am a hindu - most of our gods were bisexual !!

Though as a gift from the victorians, homosexuality is still frowned upon in India....
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 07:12 am
Damn.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 07:19 am
I would suspect that the vast majority of strident homophobes do believe that religion sprung from the received word of a diety.

I am not knowledgable enough about ancient history to venture an educated guess about why homophobia engendered prohibitions against homosexuality in some religions, but I could speculate. One might have been the inability to procreate. The other might be the relative power between the sexes,
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 07:54 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Well, somebody certainly has her undies in a bunch!

Centroles quoted what DSC wrote:
But that is not why we have a right to marriage. One doesn't earn rights. They are bestowed upon us by our creator. And similarly the fact you are an unelected fraud isn't why you don't get to take them away. For a right to be a right, we shouldn't have to beg a potentate for them on bended knee. You are not our creator and you don't get to take away what he has bestowed.

It certainly is odd to see a defense of natural rights in a screed regarding homosexual marriage. But marriage is quintessentially a civic right, not a natural right.

No one -- well, no one outside the lunatic right-wing Christian fundamentalist fringe -- is saying that homosexuals cannot commit to consensual monogamous unions. And that's all that "natural law" would guarantee. Anything more, such as civic recognition of the union, is beyond the realm of natural rights.


You make a good point here, Joe.

I'd like your take on the implications of your observation, if you would.

Specifically -- since the issue falls into the category of a civic right...

...can a case be made that limiting it arbitrarily to ONLY one man and one woman...

...is, in some legally significant way, like limiting it ONLY to white people (as an example)?

I can't make the case -- I'm not a lawyer -- but there is that feeling...!


I would like to hear your opinion on it.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 09:08 am
I voted no of course.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2004 09:20 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
You make a good point here, Joe.

Despite my best efforts, sometimes this happens.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Specifically -- since the issue falls into the category of a civic right...

...can a case be made that limiting it arbitrarily to ONLY one man and one woman...

...is, in some legally significant way, like limiting it ONLY to white people (as an example)?

I believe this is the approach being taken in the courts right now. Since the 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection of the laws (so the argument goes), it is discriminatory to limit this particular civic right -- and its attendant benefits -- to only a certain class of persons (the Vermont case, though, was based on a similar provision in the Vermont constitution, not on the 14th Amendment -- not sure what the rationale was in New Jersey or Massachusetts).

And the reason that some people want a constitutional amendment (ignoring, for the moment, the lunatic right-wing fundie fringe) is not to prohibit same-sex marriages entirely, but to allow states to refuse recognition of those marriages that are performed in other states. For instance, right now if someone gets married in State A, the "comity clause" of the constitution requires State B to recognize the legality of that marriage. Now, if it became legal for homosexuals to get married in State A, the fear is that State B -- which is violently opposed to homosexual marriages -- would have to recognize that union. So one version of the anti-gay marriage amendment would simply create a loophole in the comity clause that would allow states to refuse recognition of homosexual unions from other states.
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kjvtrue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:21 pm
For Homosexual Mariage to be, legalized would change, and it would increase the percentage of divorces. Not only that, but it would illegalize Heteral Sexual Marriage. Why should Heteral Sexual's have to go to a different country to get married?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:25 pm
Question Why would heterosexual marriage become illegal? The idea is that they BOTH would be legal.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:44 pm
kjvtrue wrote:
For Homosexual Mariage to be, legalized would change, and it would increase the percentage of divorces. Not only that, but it would illegalize Heteral Sexual Marriage. Why should Heteral Sexual's have to go to a different country to get married?

This is a joke, right?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:54 pm
I'm not sure.

Someone who wears the American flag on their ... can't be too serious.
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kjvtrue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 05:46 pm
I mean to say that Legalizing Homosexual Marriagies would change the Constitution, and yes, illegalize Heteralsexual Marriagies. "Let me guess, the Leberal Media and the Dummycraps left that out!"
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 05:59 pm
I have read the Constitution. There is nothing in it that prohibits Homosexual Mariages.

You can read the Constitution here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

Please show me what part you are talking about.

--------
"God under the Constitution"
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 06:42 pm
wowsa!
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 06:46 pm
kjvtrue pm me when you need help with the spelling of big words like liberal, heterosexual and mayonnaise.

I'm a sucker for an intellectual like yourself, especially a half naked one.
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