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Gadhafi Is Dead

 
 
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 09:04 am
Quote:
Update at 10:22 a.m. ET. Prime Minister Says GADHAFI IS DEAD:

"Libyan Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril says Moammar Gadhafi has been killed," The Associated Press reports from Tripoli.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/20/141540035/reports-gadhafi-stronghold-has-fallen-his-status-uncertain
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Type: Discussion • Score: 17 • Views: 5,570 • Replies: 91

 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 09:29 am
@tsarstepan,
Never celebrate death unless you also celebrate your own... We all have the same life and death is the universal enemy, and the more we praise death the more death feels welcome...
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 09:30 am
@Fido,
What ever you can say about the man he had people that was very loyal to him right to the end.
chai2
 
  3  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 09:33 am
@BillRM,
So did hitler and mussolini
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 09:54 am
@chai2,
Mao, Pol Pot, and slew of others also had supporters.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 10:04 am
@tsarstepan,
Quote:
The Gaddafi family tree

A look at the roles and relationships of the former Libyan leader's closest family, amid reports that Colonel Gaddafi himself is dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12531442
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 10:30 am
@tsarstepan,
Via Twitter:

Quote:
His last words were, "Don't shoot"!
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 10:34 am
@Fido,
I agree it seems wrong to celebrate the death of a human life......

that being said - I am not unhappy about it either.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 10:40 am
@Fido,
Once again Fido you post something which I suspect you consider to be profound but which is essentially...senseless.

Either you believe that Death is a distinct entity that can be attracted by kind words, but is compelled to end life (which is what I hope you will tell me you believe) or the far more banal notion that taking any pleasure or comfort in the killing of a fellow man contributes to social conditions under which your own killing is more likely.

Or there's an alternative explanation.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your attempts to appear profound and you have some skill with it (more so when you write of political ideology than every day philosophy). Once I realized you have something of a poet residing within you, I've come to enjoy your posts much more.

I acknowledge that this, at the very least, appears obnoxiously condescending, and that it is very easily the case that I've "pegged" you completely wrong, but I'm not trying to insult you but to better understand "Fido."

I'm not being flippant because I strongly suspect that an insult from me is hardly something that ruins your day, and that "Fido" is something of a construct, but if you have taken offense or even small harm, from what I've written, I sincerely apologize.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 10:42 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
On such an odd and rare occasion, Finn, I am agreement with you.

This isn't a celebratory thread but a basic "this is breaking news" thread. I'm hoping his death will stop the proGadhafi forces and their counterinsurgency actions and the violence will stop.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:00 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
why do you think he chose FIDO as a handle? Dogs have devolved into rote acting sycophants, all of whom can fake sincerity.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:03 am
@tsarstepan,
I worked in Libya in 1973 as an environmental juggie (a kid who gofers for science). Khaddafi was the hot sauce of the day. We left the country just as the beatings and killing began.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:11 am
@Linkat,
I understand that it may seem wrong to celebrate the death of a human life and even, to some extent, why this is the case, but I have a very hard time with the notion.

When discussing death in another context, most of us would probably agree that there are fates worse than death, that death cannot be avoided, and, in the absence of a belief in some form of Hell, does not justify our fear of it. Death is not our enemy and we all need not be united in defying his aim.

Whether Gadhafi is a truly evil character or the twisted product of ruinous social influences, his continued life would have meant continued suffering for many people. The fact that through most of his life he was the primary source of the suffering of many more people need not even be taken into consideration.

It's not as if the poor bastard was simply a carrier of deadly disease. If he was and the death and suffering he caused hundreds of thousands of people was essentially through innocence, we might feel funny about taking glee in his death, but there would be reason to celebrate the end of such a horrific danger.

In this case there is no innocence of intent, and someone can probably make the case that Gadhafi, at times, took glee from the death and suffering he caused.

That he is dead is a good thing and if there was a Death to praise, I would praise him for finally getting it right.

The people in Libya who suffered under his rule, certainly have reason to celebrate his death, and my bet is that there are no few number of them who feel he didn't suffer enough on his way out.

Certainly not criticizing anyone for not wanting to celebrate his death or in thinking there is something wrong in such celebration. I'm just saying I don't see the sense in feeling that way.

Even the banal explanation is far fetched. Celebrating the death of someone like Gadhafi does not coursen our respect for life and even if it did, the measure would be so small that it could hardly be connected to future acts such as those of which he was guilty.

There is nothing noble in celebrating the death of a very bad person, but I don't think there is anything ignoble to it either.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:15 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I can fully understand celebrating it - especially for the poor people who had suffered under him. And I do not look badly at people who do celebrate it. For me, personally, I just do not feel it is right to celebrate death.

But like I said - I am certainly not unhappy about it. And I am certainly happy for the people who have suffered as a result of his life.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:24 am
The ones celebrating in Libya are going to run out of bullets pretty soon. They really sure he's, like, dead-dead?
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:30 am
@Irishk,
In the pictures he looks dead dead
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:33 am
@Linkat,
Yeah, but I heard he has this cousin who's practically a twin. DNA!!!

Irish(I'm saving my ammo for now)K
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:36 am
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:

This isn't a celebratory thread but a basic "this is breaking news" thread. I'm hoping his death will stop the proGadhafi forces and their counterinsurgency actions and the violence will stop.


I get that, and I think there's an excellent chance that his death will greatly reduce, if not end the counterinsurgency.

But I also see no reason not to celebrate the end of a monster's life.

I haven't heard much detail beyond the breaking news this morning, but there was some conjecture that Gadhafi didn't die of the wounds he suffered while being captured, but that the rebels finished him off.

To some extent, I hope that's the case. There's really nothing that would have been gained by a trial and eventual execution, and his continued life may have given his supporters a reason to continue their efforts.

More importantly though, it could signal that the folks now in charge are not interested in revenge which would be good for Libya.

To the extent that there is a counter-insurgency without Gadhafi, if its leaders and members believe there is no alternative but to fight to the death, they will likely fight to the death. If there is no opportunity for them to exist, let alone modestly prosper, within modern Libyan society, my bet is that they will form the new insurgency and plague Libya for years with assassinations and car bombs.

How many times have the excesses of the victorious damaged the foundation of their victories?

There are, undoubtedly, a whole lot of scores to be settled, but I don't think whatever benefits there are from doing so will outweigh the potential ongoing harm. This will be a good test of the new Libyan leadership.

In one sense, a national celebration of Gadhafi's death might help to draw out some of the poison festering in his victim's wounds.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 11:57 am
Life goes on. It remains to be seen what the new Libya will look like.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 01:42 pm

What Will Qaddafi’s Death Teach Our Enemies?

October 20, 2011 10:50 A.M. By Clifford D. May

With Qaddafi gone, will Libyans put down their arms, clear the rubble, organize a decent government, and use the oil wealth that lies under the desert sands to rebuild? One can hope. Few bookmakers would give odds.

Qaddafi was not America’s friend, but the vision of U.S. troops pulling Saddam Hussein from a spider hole in Iraq did persuade him that having America as an enemy was not smart. So he gave up his drive to develop nuclear weapons and coughed up useful intelligence on how that project had been organized. He stopped financing terrorism — as far as we’re aware. He did continue oppressing his own people. Both the Bush and the Obama administrations pretty much gave him a pass on that.

If the Great Arab Revolt — “Arab Spring” is a hopeful, not descriptive term — ends up only removing Qaddafi and, from neighboring Egypt, Hosni Mubarak, a despot who was, nonetheless, a reasonably pliant client of the U.S., and if Iran’s theocrats remain in power and manage to save the Assad dynasty in Syria while continuing to use Hezbollah to control Lebanon and sponsoring Hamas in Gaza, the lesson will be clear: It is more dangerous to be America’s ally than its enemy.

Such a lesson will carry long-term strategic consequences. If there are strategic planners in the current administration, now would be a good time for them to start worrying.


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